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25nl Calling constant 3betters light

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10-25-2009 , 01:17 PM

#26

SlackBuck

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 213

Yeah good insightful points, also I was thinking the distribution of hands in his 3bet range is likely to be different to that in his open raise range for a lot of villains which will prob make a big difference

It's def an oversimplification but I guess the logic could apply vs certain villains in certain spots...

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10-25-2009 , 02:18 PM

#27

mygibbs

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,268

Looks pretty standard imo.

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10-25-2009 , 02:31 PM

#28

SaM StarK

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,384

Sir, calling with 98s is NOT calling light.

Very standard, nh.

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10-25-2009 , 02:34 PM

#29

mygibbs

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,268

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin9_90

oh and the more times u 4b/f the more times your gonna get 5bbluffed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaaak

If we're getting 3bet a lot tha's not a justification imo to call lightly with SC-type of hands, because when villain has a wider 3betting range, he is less likely to have a hand he wants to get allin with, he is likely to be aggressive postflop, and there really aren't a lot of flops we can continue on. So our implied odds arent [i]that[/t] great (ie they would be better against a tight 3bettor) and we can't continue on a lot of flops (or are you comfortable playing for stacks with 89s on a dry flop with an overcard? eg k85r).

Because villain is 3betting a lot our SPR goes down, so i think we need to play more hands with high-pair value against a 3bet, rather than SC's. And obviously (small) pocket pairs are really easy to play against this player.

Against 3bettors i'd rather start 4bet bluffing every once in a long while, and then stack him with QQ+/AK. In my experience they're not really stacking off light against your first 4bet, unless they're big fish altogether, in whichcase battling them needn't be a problem whatsoever..

On the flop you're never folding obv

If i'm completely off... please be gentle

Are you implying that our hand doesn't have good postflop potential o.O? If villains 3betting you light, you obv want to defend more IP because his range is wider and he's oop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin9_90

agree with Snaak ( lol spelling ) that when his range is wider your implied odds are reduced and your reverse implied odds go up heavily.

wat.

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10-25-2009 , 02:37 PM

#30

martin9_90

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,586

i.e.

he's not stacking off with a range of AA/KK/J9o/A4s/AK on 984r
as much
than he is with AA/KK/AK on 984r

also when he starts 3betting hands just as J9o and you have 98s when you flop 992 etc you lose alot (yes this is extreme but you get my point)

--- oh and yes 200bb calling IP is ok

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10-25-2009 , 02:39 PM

#31

High_SocietyA9

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 2,475

Implied odds go down because he range is wider and therefore weaker and that means we get paid less. I don't really get why our reverse go up? bigger straights/ flush over flushed?

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10-25-2009 , 02:40 PM

#32

martin9_90

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,586

Quote:

nd your reverse implied odds go up heavily.

i need to remove the world heavily

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10-25-2009 , 02:42 PM

#33

mygibbs

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 4,268

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin9_90

i.e.

he's not stacking off with a range of AA/KK/J9o/A4s/AK on 984r

than he is with AA/KK/AK on 984r

also when he starts 3betting hands just as J9o and you have 98s when you flop 992 etc you lose alot (yes this is extreme but you get my point)

--- oh and yes 200bb calling IP is ok

1. That's not his range, and he'll have to make plays post flop with some of those hands if he wants to make 3betting light oop profitable. FWIW he's prob not 3betting J9o pre but if he hits his 9, do you think he's c/f the flop? No probably not. $$$>bankwire>atm>titties.

2. Cooler.

3. I'd flat IP even at 100bb.

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10-25-2009 , 02:43 PM

#34

kaos_

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,281

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygibbs

3. I'd flat IP even at 100bb.

Only with reads that he cbets his air a lot and can fold marginal hands to heat? I hope...

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10-25-2009 , 02:45 PM

#35

Jever

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,737

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin9_90

In as few words ass possible:

The idea is if we can 4bet to a size which does not commit us to calling off to a 5bet shove with ATC(versus a range of QQ/AK), (around 31-33bb depending on dead money) then we can induce bluff 5 bets, so we get the most money in the middle when holding a preium whilst being able to 4bet bluff at a cheap price

Do you really 4bet to 33bb when 100bb deep? I think this is too much. If you meant 4bet to 33bb when being as deep as in this hand, then I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaak

and we can't continue on a lot of flops (or are you comfortable playing for stacks with 89s on a dry flop with an overcard? eg k85r).

This kind of flop isn't the worst for our hand actually, because he doesn't have too many Kx combos relative to his entire range. Also, if he calls with a king, we still have 5 outs (~20% equity), which is more than the 2 outs if we shoved e. g. 99 on the same board.
That means, you can probably shove 98 on this kind of flop profitably.

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10-25-2009 , 02:50 PM

#36

martin9_90

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,586

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygibbs

1a. obv im not giving an accurate range, i am NOT using the board given/range given in this hand. just proving a potin

1b. 98<J9o on 9xx (lol, i know what you meant dw)

2. just proving a point

3. so would i, however with wide 3bet range i think its -EV

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jever

Do you really 4bet to 33bb when 100bb deep? I think this is too much. If you meant 4bet to 33bb when being as deep as in this hand, then I agree.

I mean 31bb-33bb is the limit of your 4bet range where 4betting any more than that is basically shoving (due to being commited)

e.g. I open 3x ->10x 3bet->23.5bb 4bet [tick]
e.g I open 4x, two callers, Squeeze to 20bb, I 4bet bluff to 40bb [cross]

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10-25-2009 , 03:06 PM

#37

DrWily

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 239

just for the hell of it, he showed up with 10, 10 and I got stacked...

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10-25-2009 , 04:18 PM

#38

invictus-1

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaos_

Only with reads that he cbets his air a lot and can fold marginal hands to heat? I hope...

No, because he's a 10NL player who doesn't understand implied odds.

(I'm not joking.)

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10-25-2009 , 04:34 PM

#39

iwanttolearn

centurion

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 177

Hi !
Dr wily :
The best thing to do : leave the table.
It is not good to have an agressive player on your left.
Don't stay at the table if you are not comfortable.

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10-25-2009 , 05:28 PM

#40

gateswi

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11,427

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrWily

just for the hell of it, he showed up with 10, 10 and I got stacked...

we know

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10-25-2009 , 05:36 PM

#41

martin9_90

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Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,586

oi gates HU sng

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10-25-2009 , 05:37 PM

#42

wishiewish

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11,219

rename topic : i lost a flip

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10-26-2009 , 04:24 AM

#43

Snaaak

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,071

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygibbs

Are you implying that our hand doesn't have good postflop potential o.O? If villains 3betting you light, you obv want to defend more IP because his range is wider and he's oop.

I'm implying that we're not going to flop a strong hand that often, normally we can compensate for that those times we flop the nuts and take his stack. Plus we can play some pot control the times we make some weak made hand (which is very often). Against this villain that whole plan goes out the window.

I agree we want to defend wider, but not with 89s

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygibbs

3. I'd flat IP even at 100bb.

leaky, if you know he's 3betting wide then you shouldn't open this

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10-26-2009 , 04:28 AM

#44

Snaaak

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,071

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaM StarK

Sir, calling with 98s is NOT calling light.

Very standard, nh.

you habitually call 3bets with 98s?

Quote

10-26-2009 , 04:30 AM

#45

wishiewish

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11,219

Why not if villain is really 3betting %17?
We have position and a hand which can flop pretty fine.
We are obviously not going to play fit or fold postflop vs this aggro monkey.

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10-26-2009 , 04:32 AM

#46

Snaaak

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,071

then what is our plan postflop

our hand can flop pretty damn fine, but it doesn't do so a lot, obv most of the time the flop misses us, and the rest of the time it's going to bring an overcard to our pair... then what

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10-26-2009 , 04:34 AM

#47

wishiewish

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Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11,219

raising gutshots+ on flops will do fine.

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10-26-2009 , 04:47 AM

#48

Snaaak

adept

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,071

Does 2nd pair/no draw constitute as GS+?

and how do you conclude that this must be fine?

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