villain is 25/25 over a meaningless sample of 4 hands. But minraise + stupid stacksize = fish.


Poker Stars $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

UTG: $25.35
UTG+1: $26.12
MP: $12.20
Hero (CO): $25.00
BTN: $25.20
SB: $14.35
BB: $53.65

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is CO with A J
2 folds, MP raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, 3 folds

Flop: ($1.35) J T 6 (2 players)
MP bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.35) 2 (2 players)
MP bets $1.75, Hero raises to $10.25, MP raises to $10.70 all in, Hero calls $0.45

I would 3bet preflop if he is a fish. He is going to call with worst ace, worst jacks, lower PP and worst heart flush.

Yeh, 3-bet pre sounds good. But flatting is ok too.

I kind of want to raise flop and get it in. TPTK is da nutz against this guys. But since the board is so dry I don't mind the way you played it.

Nh, imo. OTT we def. have to ship.

Yeah, pretty much this.

For those of you advocating a 3bet here. Are we snapping a shove? I don't believe we can properly give the villain a continuation range based on four hands.

Seems silly to 3bet fold, but just because he has a half a stack doesn't mean hes continuing with worse.

Against a fish he will call the 3bet almost 100% of his pfr range. So I will fold to a 4bet because they are rarely bluffing then.
No need to gamble with this guy when we can outplay him postflop. Our edge is postflop, not preflop flips.

Agreed.

I think calling to use our skill and positional edges is best.

3bet folding is atrocious.

Why raising the turn?

Yea 3bet/folding vs an unknown half stack is lol.

Pre and flop are fine. Curious why you raise the turn? Is it value bet or semi bluff? as a semi bluff no worse hand is folding ever, as a value bet I guess worse jacks call but without a read its kinda thin. Prob just flat there and call most rivers.

I mean shipping isn't awful, we have the best hand enough and tons of equity when we don't either way, just think people tend to jump the gun in this spot without thinking it through. Like w/o the FD you wouldent ship I'm assuming, so the FD adds equity to your hand but doesn't really change villains calling range and you still have a hand with lots of SDV.

turn is fine

Yea but is it BETTER than flatting?

clearly

turn is only good if you think you can get fat value here. Against this fishy opponent it might be, but I usually like to see more hands with him first. You are also folding out all his bluffs, and given your hand there isn't that much he can continue with.

the turn play is atrocious as a bluff.

My usual play against unknowns would be to flat turn and most rivers.

Care to give us one of your lengthly but always useful explanations?

just messed around with stove and i agree with you now...you think this is an accurate calling range for villain?


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

2,376 games 0.023 secs 103,304 games/sec

Board: Jd Ts 6h 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.788% 49.37% 04.42% 1173 105.00 { AhJh }
Hand 1: 46.212% 41.79% 04.42% 993 105.00 { TT+, 66, AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo }


assuming we flat and brick the river....


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

54 games 0.005 secs 10,800 games/sec

Board: Jd Ts 6h 2h 7c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.593% 37.04% 05.56% 20 3.00 { AhJh }
Hand 1: 57.407% 51.85% 05.56% 28 3.00 { TT+, 66, AJs, KJs+, QJs, JTs, AJo, KJo, QJo, JTo }

Isnt it obvious?

That is prolly too tight - but still we crush

yea i went with a tightish range just wanted to see the equity difference assuming we dont improve, i think my range is pretty close prob a little bit wider.

anyway yea i stand corrected.

Question is - should we raise the flop having flatted PF? or turn?

If we raise the turn for value, why aren't we raising the flop for value? And if we raise the flop for value we should probably just 3bet pre.

I like flatting preflop, though I usually would raise this flop. As played I think the turn raise is very strong.

Garon

I have to disagree with the second part of this statement. I don't think raising this flop for value means we should have 3bet preflop at all.

Garon

No but it is pretty similiar

I don't really see the connection, but I'm a fish

I raise this flop (usually) for value as it increased my hand strength significantly vs. villains possible range (which is conjecture as villain is unknown), while preflop I would sometimes raise but usually flat to an unknown in this situation. Reason being I think we're ahead mostly on the flop, while we can't be sure preflop ... so raising preflop for value in this case isn't really the same as raising this flop for value as I don't think there is near as much value. Though you could make a case for a PFR for other reasons, I read the post as "raising for value" on the flop means we should raise for value preflop. I could be mistaken in his intentions, but assuming I'm not ... am I that far wrong?

Garon