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25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? 25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)?

12-31-2011 , 03:10 AM
sorry, but just cant resist posting these hands of regs getting pissed off at my LAG play and my 3bet and 4bet bluffs against them, and what they try to do in retaliation.

two back to back hands against a winning reg at 25nl


    Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #11475002

    Hero (MP1): $27.02 (108.1 bb)
    MP2: $32.82 (131.3 bb)
    MP3: $17.40 (69.6 bb)
    CO: $25 (100 bb)
    BTN: $10.35 (41.4 bb)
    SB: $25 (100 bb)
    BB: $17.60 (70.4 bb)
    UTG+1: $29.37 (117.5 bb)
    UTG+2: $25.47 (101.9 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A K
    2 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, MP2 raises to $2.50, 5 folds, Hero raises to $7.50, MP2 raises to $32.82 and is all-in, Hero calls $19.52 and is all-in

    Flop: ($54.39) 3 6 K (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: ($54.39) Q (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: ($54.39) 3 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: $54.39 pot ($2.00 rake)
    Final Board: 3 6 K Q 3
    Hero showed A K and won $52.39 ($25.37 net)
    MP2 showed A Q and lost (-$27.02 net)



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      Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #11474992

      Hero (UTG+2): $52.39 (209.6 bb)
      MP1: $25 (100 bb)
      MP2: $17.40 (69.6 bb)
      MP3: $25 (100 bb)
      CO: $10.35 (41.4 bb)
      BTN: $25 (100 bb)
      SB: $17.35 (69.4 bb)
      BB: $29.37 (117.5 bb)
      UTG+1: $25.47 (101.9 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A K
      UTG+1 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, MP1 raises to $2.50, 6 folds, Hero raises to $7.50, MP1 raises to $25 and is all-in, Hero calls $17.50

      Flop: ($50.35) 3 4 5 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      Turn: ($50.35) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: ($50.35) 8 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Spoiler:
      Results: $50.35 pot ($2 rake)
      Final Board: 3 4 5 A 8
      Hero showed A K and won $48.35 ($23.35 net)
      MP1 showed Q J and lost (-$25 net)



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      he tilted and quit right after. here berate my next hand where i call with 3rd pair on the river for a close to all in pot against another reg who apparently got pissed off at me too.





        Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #11475012

        MP2: $18.05 (72.2 bb)
        MP3: $19.77 (79.1 bb)
        CO: $14.70 (58.8 bb)
        Hero (BTN): $32.91 (131.6 bb)
        SB: $19.53 (78.1 bb)
        BB: $20 (80 bb)
        UTG+1: $10 (40 bb)
        UTG+2: $10 (40 bb)
        MP1: $10 (40 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is BTN with K 7
        6 folds, Hero raises to $0.75, SB calls $0.65, BB folds

        Flop: ($1.75) 3 8 7 (2 players)
        SB checks, Hero bets $1.25, SB calls $1.25

        Turn: ($4.25) 9 (2 players)
        SB checks, Hero bets $3.25, SB calls $3.25

        River: ($10.75) 2 (2 players)
        SB bets $10.23, Hero calls $10.23

        Spoiler:
        Results: $31.21 pot ($1.53 rake)
        Final Board: 3 8 7 9 2
        Hero showed K 7 and won $29.68 ($14.20 net)
        SB showed Q T and lost (-$15.48 net)



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        or maybe this hand

        PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

        Button ($9.65)
        SB ($25.99)
        BB ($16.39)
        Hero (UTG) ($39.88)
        UTG+1 ($9.90)
        MP1 ($15.73)
        MP2 ($22.21)
        CO ($12.50)

        Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6, 6
        Hero bets $0.75, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.75, 5 folds

        Flop: ($1.85) 9, 4, 7 (2 players)
        Hero bets $1.25, MP1 raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $7.25, MP1 calls $4.75

        Turn: ($16.35) 10 (2 players)
        Hero bets $31.25, MP1 calls $7.73 (All-In)

        River: ($31.81) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

        Total pot: $31.81 | Rake: $1.55

        Results:
        Hero had 6, 6 (one pair, sixes).
        MP1 had J, 5 (high card, Queen).
        Outcome: Hero won $30.26

        isnt poker easy? even a fish like me can win!

        Last edited by bass3p; 12-31-2011 at 03:31 AM.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 06:44 AM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by bass3p

        edit: rofl, i just saw your link to a hand history i played, jesus christ how much time do you have on your hands to actually browse through my post history, and then search my name up to find hand histories and then browse those to find a single hand played badly?
        It took <5 minutes.

        I find your attitude and style of posting irritating, so decided to check you out.

        My conclusion is that you are a dick and I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Every time I read something you post, I feel a little bit of my brain die.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 07:24 AM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Reg74
        It took <5 minutes.

        I find your attitude and style of posting irritating, so decided to check you out.

        My conclusion is that you are a dick and I have no interest in anything else you have to say. Every time I read something you post, I feel a little bit of my brain die.
        so since you felt the need to mock my advice given to another poster with no logical reason or explanation on why it is -EV , then go out of your way to personally find out my username and hand histories, and then proceed to put out my FTP username in this thread all whilst making fun of my cash game profits, could you now post your poker site sn so i could do the same? just so that i know that i didnt just stimulate my brain cells talking to a probably -xxBB/100 player, surely you must have profits exceeding mine of 6k if you were going to make fun of me for screwing around in cash games when i was probably drunk or high. otherwise, shut your ****ing mouth and dont disregard others advice that is not even directed at you just because they dont play the same style of play as you. saddest thing is that im not even using a HUD because i 24 table and am just applying basic logic fundamentals of poker and any card game, how low poker has fallen...

        Last edited by bass3p; 12-31-2011 at 07:42 AM.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 09:33 AM
        @ bass

        Sorry but you are the one in this thread that seems to think that you are gods gift to poker. You are trying to tell us that you play 24 tables without a HUD and are still able to remember all the reads and just run over NL25 while you obviously do not even know what a meaningful sample size can be.

        As for the last 4 hands you have posted...what are you trying to tell us here? Getting it in with AK pre with your image is kinda as standard as it get....AK is not different that AA/KK (again...for someone with your spewy image).

        For the K7 hand....just explain to me/us what your thinking here is please. You need to be right around 30% of the time for that call...so please tell me why do you think that after villain calls two streets on a flushdraw board and donks pot on the river after the flush hits that your third pair is good. Just thinking that is looks kinda strange for him to donk that big on the river flush doesnt cut it for me. If you are that good you certainly think about ranges and I would be interested to hear what total air type of hands he will show up until the river that also make sense for him to have.

        For the 66 hand...this is a very good example of why I do not give you any credit at all...you bet/3bet a 60bb stack leaving him with only $8 after the flop in a $16 pot....that is not how you plan a hand. Also...have you ever used pokerstove? You do realize that since villain is a fish he might not even fold a 7 here so you might have some (although very little IMO) FE against hands you already beat anyways and you have 50% equity AT BEST once he calls. And once he calls your FE is basically 0 on any turn! So not sure what your point here is...that hands is 100% a money loser over time AINEC.

        And finally....fwiw...I took the time and showed why your play with 55 (first hand you posted) is totally bad but you were the one only talking about sample size at first. So not everyone here is trying to make it personal. For me its just about the game and I think that over the long run your style might boarderline work at NL25 but certainly not at a site like Stars at NL50+. I also dont expect you to care about what I think of your game but unless I see a meaningful graph of you winning at those limits mentioned above your advice it pretty meaningless to me cause until now you only posted a hanful of hands where you made bad/boarderline plays (at least IMO) and just got lucky/run into the bottom of a bad players range and your total sample size does not say anything. So to me there is no prove that this is going to work.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 10:48 AM
        Bass3p please understand this that I don't care for even a little bit how awesome/bad/terrible/great you are doing. It doesn't affect me in any way and I'm arguing not because you're running great or w/e but because stuff you talk doesn't make sense.
        So far it looks like whenever you don't feel like having the best hand you simply turn it into a bluff. People will adjust and 20k sample is how many days in 24tabling? Many regs at 25nl are really terrible when it comes to adjusting but give them a few weeks and you'll see.
        Also as i've said i'm playing LAG myself and it's frustrating when you know that opponent has at the very best TPNK but he's still willing to stack off with it against you. Hand reading is not enough, you must keep track of your image. I could post you some examples when villain c/c for 3 streets with QJ on J high flushy/straighty board just because I get out of line too often. I can also post some examples when they c/c for 3 streets with 2nd pair or even A high just because of my image.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 02:13 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Messenjupp
        @ bass

        Sorry but you are the one in this thread that seems to think that you are gods gift to poker. You are trying to tell us that you play 24 tables without a HUD and are still able to remember all the reads and just run over NL25 while you obviously do not even know what a meaningful sample size can be.

        As for the last 4 hands you have posted...what are you trying to tell us here? Getting it in with AK pre with your image is kinda as standard as it get....AK is not different that AA/KK (again...for someone with your spewy image).

        For the K7 hand....just explain to me/us what your thinking here is please. You need to be right around 30% of the time for that call...so please tell me why do you think that after villain calls two streets on a flushdraw board and donks pot on the river after the flush hits that your third pair is good. Just thinking that is looks kinda strange for him to donk that big on the river flush doesnt cut it for me. If you are that good you certainly think about ranges and I would be interested to hear what total air type of hands he will show up until the river that also make sense for him to have.

        For the 66 hand...this is a very good example of why I do not give you any credit at all...you bet/3bet a 60bb stack leaving him with only $8 after the flop in a $16 pot....that is not how you plan a hand. Also...have you ever used pokerstove? You do realize that since villain is a fish he might not even fold a 7 here so you might have some (although very little IMO) FE against hands you already beat anyways and you have 50% equity AT BEST once he calls. And once he calls your FE is basically 0 on any turn! So not sure what your point here is...that hands is 100% a money loser over time AINEC.

        And finally....fwiw...I took the time and showed why your play with 55 (first hand you posted) is totally bad but you were the one only talking about sample size at first. So not everyone here is trying to make it personal. For me its just about the game and I think that over the long run your style might boarderline work at NL25 but certainly not at a site like Stars at NL50+. I also dont expect you to care about what I think of your game but unless I see a meaningful graph of you winning at those limits mentioned above your advice it pretty meaningless to me cause until now you only posted a hanful of hands where you made bad/boarderline plays (at least IMO) and just got lucky/run into the bottom of a bad players range and your total sample size does not say anything. So to me there is no prove that this is going to work.
        when you play poker for a significant amount of time you get an intuitive feel for when an opponent is bluffing and what his range is down to more or less 1-3 hands, you also are able to tell when you are ahead most of the time, my intuition is right more than half the time for things like these which makes it +EV for me to call, any hand is justifiable if you have a read on the player. im not saying im god's gift to poker, but when you all seemingly jump on me for saying i can beat 25NL with a LAG image, and then i get personally outted and made fun of mainly because my posts are regarding LAG play with the level one thinking portrayed by numerous people that basically boils down to "lol i bet this guy bluffs every street and is a complete fish, i'll always have a monster hand here when you bluff and im going to stack off you every single time, ahahaha fish!" do you know how irritating it is reading something like that as a winning LAG player in both Razz and NLHE? you can't help but feel like a god when you read posts like this from the same TAG players that you run over every, single, game that don't adapt, and don't learn. that 66 hand is based on a read that he was on a flush draw, you seriously think i make plays like that frequently with no basis? it was a reraise/fold to shove on the flop, i re-evaluated the situation on the turn and figured he had a flush draw more times than not with his play there and was hoping to get him to fold it but he called anyways and i thought i lost because my read was off but my 66s held up.

        Last edited by bass3p; 12-31-2011 at 02:23 PM.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 02:18 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by tobe4funas
        Bass3p please understand this that I don't care for even a little bit how awesome/bad/terrible/great you are doing. It doesn't affect me in any way and I'm arguing not because you're running great or w/e but because stuff you talk doesn't make sense.
        So far it looks like whenever you don't feel like having the best hand you simply turn it into a bluff. People will adjust and 20k sample is how many days in 24tabling? Many regs at 25nl are really terrible when it comes to adjusting but give them a few weeks and you'll see.
        Also as i've said i'm playing LAG myself and it's frustrating when you know that opponent has at the very best TPNK but he's still willing to stack off with it against you. Hand reading is not enough, you must keep track of your image. I could post you some examples when villain c/c for 3 streets with QJ on J high flushy/straighty board just because I get out of line too often. I can also post some examples when they c/c for 3 streets with 2nd pair or even A high just because of my image.
        "So far it looks like whenever you don't feel like having the best hand you simply turn it into a bluff." so when i do this over the course of 24 tables and i win 90% of the hands when i decide to "just simply turn my hand into a bluff," its just complete luck right? i mean the people who play at higher stakes and bluff are doing the same thing right? just simply turning their hands into a bluff when they dont feel like having the best hand. you guys aren't getting the bigger picture.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 02:53 PM
        whatever man, you're image will catch up with you. see ya when the regs wake up
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 04:47 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by bass3p
        when you play poker for a significant amount of time you get an intuitive feel for when an opponent is bluffing and what his range is down to more or less 1-3 hands, you also are able to tell when you are ahead most of the time, my intuition is right more than half the time for things like these which makes it +EV for me to call, any hand is justifiable if you have a read on the player. im not saying im god's gift to poker, but when you all seemingly jump on me for saying i can beat 25NL with a LAG image, and then i get personally outted and made fun of mainly because my posts are regarding LAG play with the level one thinking portrayed by numerous people that basically boils down to "lol i bet this guy bluffs every street and is a complete fish, i'll always have a monster hand here when you bluff and im going to stack off you every single time, ahahaha fish!" do you know how irritating it is reading something like that as a winning LAG player in both Razz and NLHE? you can't help but feel like a god when you read posts like this from the same TAG players that you run over every, single, game that don't adapt, and don't learn. that 66 hand is based on a read that he was on a flush draw, you seriously think i make plays like that frequently with no basis? it was a reraise/fold to shove on the flop, i re-evaluated the situation on the turn and figured he had a flush draw more times than not with his play there and was hoping to get him to fold it but he called anyways and i thought i lost because my read was off but my 66s held up.
        Oh dear.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 07:18 PM
        Bass, do you have blog? I would love to follow, so you where beating razz for a while, tell us more about that please
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 07:19 PM
        and post more
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        12-31-2011 , 11:24 PM
        here we go again but whatever
        1. It really started once you posted your 7BB/100 winrate over the amazing sample of 5k hands...so not sure what you were expecting but again...you can not back up your creative/spewy/read based plays or whatever you wanna call it with results IMO so people have the right to be skeptical...simply posting some hands where it worked just doesnt cut it cause everyone can post those hands. Also you did not really explain your thought process or anything on any of those hands...getting it in with AK with your image is as standard as it gets as I already mentioned and also just posting some thin stuff and telling us you did it based on a read is kinda laughable..sorry. I mean its kinda obvious that you should base your action on a read...until now I still have not heard any logic explanation of any of those hands from you besides some short stuff about the 66 hand that is not convincing at all.
        2. Not sure what to make out of your explanation to the 66 hand. You put a 60bb seemingly bad minraising player on a flushdraw and yet you still 3bet kind of a normal size and leave this odd stacks behind....with those stacksizes if you put him on a draw you should bet/shove the flop or call flop and c/shove turn on any/most non flush turn...from my experience even at NL50 and NL100 against fish with a flushdraw your FE on the flop is 10% at best anyways. Microplayers dont like to fold...simple as that and your hand proves that...so not sure how reliable your reads/plays are if you really expect villains/fish to fold a flushdraw on the flop..if they fold you had the best hand 90% of the time...and seriously thinking that you have any FE against a FD left on the turn with those stacksizes is amazing to say the least...I know you dont have to prove anything to me so we might just leave it at that. I just can repeat one more time what I wrote in my first post in here (or second)...to me it seems that you try to play with reads and are OK with that but you are missing the right combination of spots and hands to do that...thats what I mean with having an overcard combo with the T22 or T66 board instead of 55 or what it was and with the 66 hand where I think its better to risk a freecard and just calling the flopminraise and c/shoving the turn instead of making this odd 3bet that leave you in nomansland on the turn OOP with FE under 10%.

        But anyways...happy new year...
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-01-2012 , 07:09 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Messenjupp
        here we go again but whatever
        1. It really started once you posted your 7BB/100 winrate over the amazing sample of 5k hands...so not sure what you were expecting but again...you can not back up your creative/spewy/read based plays or whatever you wanna call it with results IMO so people have the right to be skeptical...simply posting some hands where it worked just doesnt cut it cause everyone can post those hands. Also you did not really explain your thought process or anything on any of those hands...getting it in with AK with your image is as standard as it gets as I already mentioned and also just posting some thin stuff and telling us you did it based on a read is kinda laughable..sorry. I mean its kinda obvious that you should base your action on a read...until now I still have not heard any logic explanation of any of those hands from you besides some short stuff about the 66 hand that is not convincing at all.
        2. Not sure what to make out of your explanation to the 66 hand. You put a 60bb seemingly bad minraising player on a flushdraw and yet you still 3bet kind of a normal size and leave this odd stacks behind....with those stacksizes if you put him on a draw you should bet/shove the flop or call flop and c/shove turn on any/most non flush turn...from my experience even at NL50 and NL100 against fish with a flushdraw your FE on the flop is 10% at best anyways. Microplayers dont like to fold...simple as that and your hand proves that...so not sure how reliable your reads/plays are if you really expect villains/fish to fold a flushdraw on the flop..if they fold you had the best hand 90% of the time...and seriously thinking that you have any FE against a FD left on the turn with those stacksizes is amazing to say the least...I know you dont have to prove anything to me so we might just leave it at that. I just can repeat one more time what I wrote in my first post in here (or second)...to me it seems that you try to play with reads and are OK with that but you are missing the right combination of spots and hands to do that...thats what I mean with having an overcard combo with the T22 or T66 board instead of 55 or what it was and with the 66 hand where I think its better to risk a freecard and just calling the flopminraise and c/shoving the turn instead of making this odd 3bet that leave you in nomansland on the turn OOP with FE under 10%.

        But anyways...happy new year...
        happy new years, im still hungover but ill try to explain this. the thing is that you are playing using a scientific approach to the game, you quantify most of your actions into percentages or at the very least have a notion for those percentages and then base how to play the hand based on your percentages and probabilities, you fold when someone does not give you the correct pot odds in relation to the potential pot equity that you think your hand has, sure you play "optimally," but the issue is that you are faced with the constraints of this thinking. you are limited to this way of thinking all the time and this becomes fairly obvious to anyone who has played that style of TAG for a fair bit, you are extremely predictable and you believe that whenever you fold you were correct to do so and then the cycle continues with you having a tendency to fold in certain spots and bluff if villain follows a certain line. This is exploitable, not by anyone whos new to poker, but anyone whos played poker for a fair bit will exploit you to the max. TAGs only play their hand strength and play accordingly in relation to their hand strength, LAGs play both their hand strength and also their opponents because they have
        an understanding of how a rational TAG would play and this allows them to manipulate the actions of a TAG and also know when they are ahead or behind in a hand. The things with LAG is that, though they are called Loose Aggressive, which makes you think that he is playing any hand without a sense for hand value and poker concepts because you've been fed so much crap regarding how TAG is the only way to play poker, if you've ever played a decent LAG, they aren't randomly playing hands, they're looking at the betting patterns, the positioning and the overall table and then applying poker concepts to justify whether or not they are capable of making profit playing a hand like this given how the opponent plays. against a good lag, if you aren't ever 3betting and 4betting them light with air then they're going to run you over a lot more times then you do to them in a session. LAGs are way less predictable then TAGs and thats why being in a hand with them forces you to believe he has nothing most of the time, and a good lag knows how to exploit this to extract maximum value from you when he does have a hand and minimize his losses when he doesnt.

        i used to play TAG in the beginning stages at 5NL and doing this while 24tabling you absorb a SIGNIFICANT amount general poker concept and theory in a short amount of time.To beat the rest of the players, who are TAGs themselves nowadays, you cant just be a better TAG then them, you only gain marginal value over another TAG player if you play like that simply because he plays the situations the same as you do, two TAGs playing eachother and dont hit the board, the one who is the more aggressive will always win the pot because TAGs fear aggression without a hand. LAGs are different because they don't play their own hand, they play the opponent moreso and play by a hand by hand basis and think of the hand and opponent rather then playing to get the most optimal longrun +EV that is a result of playing your hand "optimally" in relation to what you have and by strategies that are backed up by percentages, TAGs have VERY very little understanding of the opponent and only a really strong understanding of their hand strength in relation to others, which does allow them to beat micro stakes because there are people out there that don't even understand the relative value of hand strength. as opposed to decent LAGs who understand the relative value of hand strength in addition to how the opponent plays and his behavioural patterns in response to certain things and how they should play in order to force the opponent to display his hand value to them. which is why a LAG who isn't just some new poker player and plays following some basis for his actions will runover a TAG easily.

        anyways im done explaining, i don't really mind or care if you guys continue to play TAG simply because you will be easier to play against than another LAG reg at whatever stakes i play at. also, you guys thinking that my range preflop is loose enough for you to be stacking off with AQ; disregarding the QJ because the reg was on tilt, and that's a standard play against a decent LAG is laughable, i dont even stack off with AK against randoms and only do it against TAGs who i think are trying to adjust to my LAG play.

        Last edited by bass3p; 01-01-2012 at 07:20 PM.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-01-2012 , 08:52 PM
        say LAG more times please
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 12:51 AM
        I did it like a LAG,
        bluffing in the bluff mistake thread.
        You skeezers tryin' to get me off my hand.
        I'm multitabling blind, was a SNG hero,
        you're a bunch of nitty pussies, I'm god you're zero.
        Like a LAG.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 09:57 AM
        Sounds to me you are putting too much energy in to worrying whether you are playing LAG or TAG.

        Lags beat micro stakes more than Tags? I like to see evidence to back that up. Why are most of the biggest winners at the micros and SS Tags?
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 11:22 AM
        The definition of a TAG is tight and aggressive, the definition of a LAG is loose and aggressive. There's not a single word in these two definitions that TAG's can't handread better than LAG's. Here's the problem in your whole logic, you assume that if a player plays less hands it is because he's not good at hand reading or he only wants to play his hand, not opponents/board texture. This is really wrong... You're using words TAG and LAG in the wrong meanings.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 12:11 PM
        I can't believe people are still giving this fish oxygen.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 02:05 PM
        This thread is awesome bass3p please update it regular so we can keep track of your winnings ! gl in LAG
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 04:30 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by morc1us
        This thread is awesome bass3p please update it regular so we can keep track of your winnings ! gl in LAG
        +1, people only getting upset cause they realise bass3p speaks the truth, he recognises that saying NIT isn't going to get the point accross cause everyone thinks 'no way i'm not a NIT i'm a TAG' but they need to realise that TAG is just the new NIT but they can't, also yes i'm trying to emulate bass3p's LAG posting style anyways i'm done explai

        Last edited by andyhai; 01-02-2012 at 04:31 PM. Reason: cause that's how done i am with the explaining
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 04:45 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by MartL
        Sounds to me you are putting too much energy in to worrying whether you are playing LAG or TAG.

        Lags beat micro stakes more than Tags? I like to see evidence to back that up. Why are most of the biggest winners at the micros and SS Tags?
        because the good LAGs move up in stakes and dont stick around to play 500k hands to earn something like 200 buyins at a micro stake, i think the bigger question is, why do i see the same TAG regs at the same stake with over 1 million hands, earning 300x the buyin for that stake and not moving up, surely they have enough buyins when they earn 5000$ at 25NL that they can move up to 50NL.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by tobe4funas
        The definition of a TAG is tight and aggressive, the definition of a LAG is loose and aggressive. There's not a single word in these two definitions that TAG's can't handread better than LAG's. Here's the problem in your whole logic, you assume that if a player plays less hands it is because he's not good at hand reading or he only wants to play his hand, not opponents/board texture. This is really wrong... You're using words TAG and LAG in the wrong meanings.
        i assume that if a player is able to play MORE hands and also win with a higher BB/100 than a TAG player, then he has a greater postflop and preflop ability than a TAG player. ill simplify it, suppose that there is someone who is able to read someones hand 99% of the time (in theory), would this person not want to isolate every hand and see close to every flop and then, given that he knows his opponents hand, outplay him postflop by folding when opponent has a monster and being extremely aggressive when he doesn't hit the board, hence LAG? do you guys not see players like durrr or phil ivey play extremely LAG, 5betting and 6betting with complete air against eachother, and then theres the TAGs like phil hellmuth who just gets murdered when he goes into a high stakes cash game and plays his ****ty TAG game.

        Quote:
        Originally Posted by Reg74
        I can't believe people are still giving this fish oxygen.
        can you please post your sn now? i'd really like to check up the PTR and SS stats of you since you're so better than me and have the balls to call my sn out.

        ****, want to forget i ever posted in here since i come back everytime and then get put on tilt reading this stuff.

        Last edited by bass3p; 01-02-2012 at 04:56 PM.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 05:18 PM
        You're very easily tilted. Maybe you have a problem there.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 05:28 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by bass3p
        because the good LAGs move up in stakes and dont stick around to play 500k hands to earn something like 200 buyins at a micro stake, i think the bigger question is, why do i see the same TAG regs at the same stake with over 1 million hands, earning 300x the buyin for that stake and not moving up, surely they have enough buyins when they earn 5000$ at 25NL that they can move up to 50NL.



        i assume that if a player is able to play MORE hands and also win with a higher BB/100 than a TAG player, then he has a greater postflop and preflop ability than a TAG player. ill simplify it, suppose that there is someone who is able to read someones hand 99% of the time (in theory), would this person not want to isolate every hand and see close to every flop and then, given that he knows his opponents hand, outplay him postflop by folding when opponent has a monster and being extremely aggressive when he doesn't hit the board, hence LAG? do you guys not see players like durrr or phil ivey play extremely LAG, 5betting and 6betting with complete air against eachother, and then theres the TAGs like phil hellmuth who just gets murdered when he goes into a high stakes cash game and plays his ****ty TAG game.



        can you please post your sn now? i'd really like to check up the PTR and SS stats of you since you're so better than me and have the balls to call my sn out.

        ****, want to forget i ever posted in here since i come back everytime and then get put on tilt reading this stuff.
        we play fr, not hu. forgot that?
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 07:04 PM
        Quote:
        Originally Posted by bass3p
        because the good LAGs move up in stakes and dont stick around to play 500k hands to earn something like 200 buyins at a micro stake, i think the bigger question is, why do i see the same TAG regs at the same stake with over 1 million hands, earning 300x the buyin for that stake and not moving up, surely they have enough buyins when they earn 5000$ at 25NL that they can move up to 50NL.


        The good TAGs move up but there is more of them. How do you explain that if LAG is clearly a better strategy?
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote
        01-02-2012 , 07:21 PM
        Grunch

        The guy is playing short stacked, that should tighten up your 3bet bluffing frequency because he isn't putting 100BB at risk.

        Also, Kxs is a better hand to 3bet bluff IP than OOP, IMO. I personally like betting something like a SPP or a SC OOP. Something that can hit big. Because, yeah, hitting TP with Kx is never that fun. Your hand is still pretty much a bluff because you're not getting called by a ton better.

        As for this hand, you have TP in a 3bet pot with 60BB effective. I don't think you have a choice besides bet-shove.

        Also, if you want to get into something of a more exploitative nature, someone who is sitting with 60BB is probably a fish and you don't really want to bluff the fish. His 19/8 stats seem to suggest the same.

        Balance is good and I think everyone should work on balance because it's useful to be good at it against more reggy players. And even in this situation, if 3bet bluffing out of the blind is something you want to work on, then I've got no problem with that. But I don't like it in this specific situation for the reasons I've stated above.
        25NL 3bet bluff mistake(s)? Quote

              
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