Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2(BB) Pacific Game#98956284

Hero ($198)
BB ($272.67)
UTG ($348.05)
UTG+1 ($166)
CO ($286.50)
BTN ($187)

Dealt to Hero 44

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $8, Hero raises to $25, call, fold,

FLOP ($58) 227

Hero bets $42, BB raises to $84, Hero folds,

BB wins $138

BB = 100/0 over 3 hands so well like no reads at all! This is line ok?

call pf

preflop call/fold are both fine and 3bet is not good at all. as played pf, i would bet like 33 on the flop and fold to minraise

Why call preflop, I can never play 44 just for set value here, I have more value in 3betting in this spot.

BB is unknown at that point, if I knew it is a loose idiot a call is for sure better. But I like 3betting here since the button range is so wide and he will fold a bunch of it and if he calls and I flop a set I have more chance of stacking him.

3betting 44 oop isnt usually good, as we dont like any flop without 4 and will be have to give up if our cbet is called. if we call BB will probably call too as he has played 3 hands in a row by calling raise or liming he is not too tight and aggressive postflop. so in a 3 way flop we usually win more then 7*8$ if we hit

You've got too many assumptions in your reasoning without enough facts. If he is unknown we have no idea of his postflop or preflop tendencies, so your reasoning is a wild guess. This is a very expensive bluff to attempt, so you need harder facts to support your play than say if you made 1/2 pot cbet or raised a hand to steal the blinds.

The fact you can flop a set cheapens this bluff a little bit maybe by 5 or 10 dollars, but doesn't cheapen bluff enough to make it profitable (imo).

The reason why people are suggesting calling preflop is that against the vast majority of players, a set of fours will return the 60 dollars necessary to set mine against them.

I'd rather bluff raise this flop than 3b pre

why not just call and fold the flop? stop over valuing a 7 to 1 shot

wtf is going on here? this is the most standard 3bet ever

I wouldn't 3bet an unknown though. Flop is an obv fold.

Thanks, yeah in my opinion this also a standard 3bet.

For the peoples saying this is a call preflop: How can I call just preflop (BB is still unknown! don't know how loose this guy is for real), if I call I will need c/f the flop when I don't hit my set, when I hit my set I won't will get payed of that often since the range of the button is so wide, so there is much more value in 3betting in this spot picking up the pot preflop or play a 3betted flop when I hit my set with a much wider chance of stacking someone. And a lot of other flops like these I can c-bet profitable.

You have assigned the button an imaginary range, which makes 3-betting better than calling. This guy probably isn't a 10/20 caliber tag, who is going to aggressively attack your blinds and while folding to aggression as a default. Why can I say that? He's playing 1/2 and you've never seen him before. This means two things first of all he's rarely if ever an online superstar and secondly he probably has big leaks in his game or he would be playing higher.

What sorts of big leaks do most people have? They don't fold enough and are overly passive pre and postflop. You don't want to attempt big weak semibluffs against them. You want to call and stack them when you hit your hand. If you can't make 60 dollars when you flop a set, you need to seriously work on your game.

while this often makes the hand easier to play, it's not a very good bluff if better hands don't fold.......which they never do on this board.

Wait a sec, that he was unknown was about the BB which just got to the table. I know the button he is playing a 21/11/1.3 style (over 500 hands) and has a AttS of 24%, has a fold to c-bet of 60% and also a fold to 3bet% of 60%. So he isn't unknown.