ask your favorite "wild players"... they dont come into a hold em game and go bonkers raising, floating the flop to bluff later... their basic game is a SOLID game, and from there, perhaps they make adjustments more agressively and freely.

lol at your comparing a "very good lag" to a "tight player of equal skill"... by definition they are both "very good" and EQUAL of skill, they just have different styles. someone who plays against an opponent EQUAL in skill will net the same $$.

youre making a mistake thinking that a player who is hard to play against is a good player or a winning player. in fact many big losers are very hard to play against.

theres a particular type of L.A. wannabe pro who comes to mind. they play about 40% of thier hands, always for a raise or reraise, have a "win every pot" mentality. put their opponents on the bottom of their range at all times and jam every scare card. on 2+2 theyre called "standard"...in the real world theyre called "broke". BUT when you are running cold they make your life a living hell. when your running average to good you can obliterate their entire bankroll (inevitably from a tournament win) in a weekend. (i touched on this in an earlier answer about vegas players v. l.a. players.)

the tag player seems easier to play against because you play so many fewer hands against him. BUT if you were able to wrap your head around those hands you would see that he is very tough in all the right spots...hes the rake. and in a poker game only the rake wins.

Your post has more to do with poor bankroll management than incorrect playing style. It's impossible to bust someone willing to drop down.

I think that it's certainly easy (and safer) to play a solid TAG style and be pretty successful -- and surprisingly stable -- as a live cash game pro. Most live pros in my games play that style. But I think you're certainly sacrificing some value for that stability.

I do agree that more people try to play LAG than can actually pull it off, and some even run good for a long time before the cards break. The best LAGs I've seen are raising and reraising a ton, take lots stabs at a bunch of pots, but tend to somehow show up with the goods when all the money is in the middle. . . .

BTW, loved the part in your OP about live, deep stacked play. Seen excellent players used to medium 100BB-200BB stacks struggle with that adjustment time after time, to the point where I look for certain types of big mistakes from these players.

hi all,

i just wanted to thank everybody for what turned out to be a highly civil thread (by 2+2 standards).

as a parting gift ill share a funny hand from the commerce 10-20nl.

the hand goes like this...julien, a grade A nutcase raises. Mike, an asian dude w/ alot of ticks (maybe tourettes) re-raises. Julien calls and everyone else folds.

flop is whatever. julien checks, mike bets pot, julien calls.

turn is whatever. julien checks, mike bets pot, julien calls.

river is whatever. julien checks, mike does a speech about how julien would never check a pair,then bets pot, julien goes in the tank then asks mike if he would like to split the pot. Mike says no. Julien says he likes Mike, knows hes winning and asks again for a chop. mike says no. so julien says call.

now mike says, "Q high you win". julien replies, "i know thats why i was trying to chop the pot with you" then adds, "if you still want to chop we can". Mike, suprised, agrees to take the chop. julien shows J high.

lol remind me to stay away from julien if he has this much foresight and handreading skills

You forgot one more piece of the story Limon, "screw it, even if I end up getting ass-raped, I'll get a prison tat, so the whole thing will be +EV from an image (i.e., metagame) standpoint."

based on skimming this thread, I'd say limon is good for bankroll and investment advice, but I wouldn't ever follow his poker advice. He criticizes lag play because he plays mostly live and most live players that try to play lag suck at it. Further, it seems that all his poker advice just assumes that the opponents blow, which they usually do in live games, but then it's not really HSNL advice, now is it?

never follow the poker advice of someone who spends 90%+ of their time doing things besides poker BECAUSE OF POKER...they obviously arent thinking correctly about the game.

durrr is the least boring person to watch on televised poker EVER. and he does NOT play ABC

old jude you are wrong IMO. that is a misunderstanding that you a and lot of people have. durrr is an ABC player, but from that base he makes more adjustments, and more agressive adjustments. but at heart he is not a wildman. cause wildmen are never winners in poker. i would be extremely surprised if any top player said they were otherwise.

what about ziig?

wow youngjude howd you get to watch the thousands of hours of hands filmed but not televised across all of the shows he has been on? please tell of all the amazing hands that have not been seen on tv. because i just assumed it was boring stuff like errrr...folding alot oop pre, betting the best hands, folding the worst hands NOT TILTING and doing what pretty much every other winning player on the planet does.

i'm starting to like limon. he's a little stubborn but fun to read nonetheless

limon, seems you misread his post, or im in the twilight zone

didnt misread, just formed my response in a snarky, possibly confusing way...

cliffnotes: from the ocean of filmed poker aired and otherwise (cutting room floor) the interesting stuff fits in a thimble. and this goes for everyone, durrr included. BUT IM NOT RIPPING ON DURRR. i think hes a very good boring player just like all very good players...EXCITING PLAYERS (guys who get ratings) SUCK! see also: jamie gold

limon, great thread. Now, please stop getting into it with these guys. You made your point. Those who want to learn more than they deserve to from it can. Those who don't can look somewhere else.

This has to be one of the sickest hands i've ever heard

Man that is so funny made my night, thanks limon.

Ok I give up who are you Limon? I play at Commerce everyday and I cant figure it out. Scotty was a good guess, but hes definitely over 37 yo.
My guess is that you are Joe Cordi, but hes older than 37 too...BTW you are wrong about Odie. He is the biggest winner in the 10/20 for the last couple of years. Hes having alot of success in tournys too.

i dont think i said anything bad about odie other than he buys in too deep IMO and makes the game alot harder than it needs to be. riverboat king had more choice words for him...

This is actually wrong. Just because they are of equal skill doesn't mean that you will win or lose the same amount vs. them. If you are a robot, yes; if you are a human being susceptible to tilt, the lag will probably beat you out of more. Just to head off an obvious argument, part of my definition of "very good lag," is "very good at dealing with the swings that his style generates, so that he benefits more from others' tilt than he suffers from his own."

I do of course agree with your basic point that lag is not inherently better or worse than tag, and with your other point that the best players tend to start out solid and then make adjustments, at least in tough games.

This is the greatest thread I've ever read on 2+2. I truly adore you limon.

you might be right...ive been very entertained by both of the dur/helmuth heads up matches...no joke.

if anyone needed any further proof that odie was a bad player/douchebag just watch him on the final table of the fest al lago wpt.

not only does he conduct himself like a douche (way to talk **** after getting money in bad and sucking out) but he plays atrociously as well.

if he is really the biggest winner in past two years at commerce 10/20 then the rest of you playing that game are awful.

He made mistakes at the final table. But at the end of the day there is only one way to keep score in poker...