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10NL Zoom Q9s

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09-16-2014 , 06:54 PM

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

SB: $10.83 (108.3 bb)
BB: $19.90 (199 bb)
UTG: $14.85 (148.5 bb)
MP: $25.14 (251.4 bb)
CO: $20.05 (200.5 bb)
Hero (BTN): $16.55 (165.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q

3 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, SB raises to $0.90, BB folds, Hero raises to $2, SB calls $1.10

Flop: ($4.10) T

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.61, SB raises to $8.83 and is all-in, Hero calls $6.22

vs. 22\19 w big 3b vs. hero

We fold out better hands by betting flop and have a decent equity if he shoves.

Do we need some specific reads, to x\back flop and AI vs. his bet OTT, or just bet if he checks turn again?

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09-16-2014 , 11:42 PM

K40cheddar

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,736

Not really sure why you want to 4bet here instead of see the flop with position.

As played, can't really fold when you flop what you want.

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09-17-2014 , 02:08 AM

bailashtoreth

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qu1ck

We fold out better hands by betting flop and have a decent equity if he shoves.

If we are planning on calling a shove, why not shove ourselves on this big draw? A shove is only 2x pot, but then we have showdown equity and fold equity. With the pot this size, villain either folds or shoves anyway.

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09-17-2014 , 03:21 AM

karv

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailashtoreth

that sounds just silly

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09-17-2014 , 04:19 AM

Csaba

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 3,131

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailashtoreth

What worse hands call a shove?

All you're doing is pushing out hands that Hero has an equity edge against.

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09-17-2014 , 05:20 AM

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

Quote:

Originally Posted by K40cheddar

Not really sure why you want to 4bet here instead of see the flop with position.

As played, can't really fold when you flop what you want.

This hand is in the bottom of my 3b calling range, id rather call w QTs+

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09-17-2014 , 08:59 AM

TWhelan

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

Quote:

Originally Posted by K40cheddar

Not really sure why you want to 4bet here instead of see the flop with position.

+1, 4betting isn't horrible but no point if you can flat here instead.

Would definitely just bet flop, fold equity + good equity when we have to gii.

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09-17-2014 , 09:11 AM

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

Quote:

Originally Posted by TWhelan

+1, 4betting isn't horrible but no point if you can flat here instead.

It`s 2 gapper, if we hit Q than the kicker sucks, the only good about this hand is that its suited, and even then we doon`t hit flushes\flushdraws too often, so why would you call?

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09-17-2014 , 09:18 AM

TheBaconWarrior

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 889

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailashtoreth

This is not unreasonable, but I wouldn't do it vs someone we have history with, because balance.

AQ/AJ/JJ could spazz and end up realising their equity.

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09-17-2014 , 11:52 AM

#10

suri0

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 417

Shoving isn't silly.

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09-17-2014 , 01:30 PM

#11

karv

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 90

Quote:

Originally Posted by suri0

Shoving isn't silly.

what are the other hands u shove here? overshove looks extremely spazzy.
Yeah, we have huge equity, but we do want to play poker not bingo

its not like we are ever folding this flop, but for me
cbet > x/r > shove

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09-17-2014 , 01:34 PM

#12

TheBaconWarrior

adept

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 889

Most villains are never folding Kx here anyway.

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09-17-2014 , 01:39 PM

#13

karv

enthusiast

Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 90

sorry, didnt see it wasnt x/r, just a cbet

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09-17-2014 , 10:34 PM

#14

shinamobabi1

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 147

Just flat preflop, 4bet is a little spews if he calls and u dont hit the flop like you did

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09-18-2014 , 12:10 AM

#15

K40cheddar

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,736

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qu1ck

This hand is in the bottom of my 3b calling range, id rather call w QTs+

I don't really understand why you think QTs is that much different than Q9s.

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09-18-2014 , 01:01 AM

#16

brockwilson

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 118

Quote:

Originally Posted by karv

that sounds just silly

silly silly boy!

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09-18-2014 , 06:24 AM

#17

Mr Blonde

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 3,751

Pre is bad, call

As played I don't see the question... Obviously get a 12 outer in

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09-18-2014 , 07:08 AM

#18

MartimC

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Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 6,626

pre is pretty bad indeed

ap , i'd go a bit smaller otf, and set up a PS turn shove

can't fold now

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09-18-2014 , 08:25 AM

#19

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

What hands would you light 4b here with then?

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09-18-2014 , 08:29 AM

#20

MartimC

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Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 6,626

Q8s-
K8s-
J8s-
etc

some T6s hands

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09-18-2014 , 08:55 AM

#21

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartimC

Q8s-
K8s-
J8s-
etc

some T6s hands

Is it because Q9s is a 2 gapper? What about Q9o? Just fold or 4b is fine?

Quote

09-18-2014 , 09:01 AM

#22

Alci

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 1,320

4 betting Q9s is not as bad as everybody is making out. It's plenty strong enough to be part of your 4B bluff range in this situation. The reason I don't like 4-betting it here is because I think it has enough equity to be flatted here whereas 3 and 4 gap hands like K8s, Q8s probably do not.

As played I like Martim's plan of playing to set up turn shove.

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09-18-2014 , 09:05 AM

#23

TWhelan

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 8,754

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alci

The reason I don't like 4-betting it here is because I think it has enough equity to be flatted here whereas 3 and 4 gap hands like K8s, Q8s probably do not.

Exactly, which means it is bad to 4bet bluff with it if we can flat.
The more hands we can play profitably the better.

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09-18-2014 , 09:08 AM

#24

Qu1ck

adept

Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 850

But what makes you think that you can flat profitably?

I didn`t even name his 3b vs. hero % and hands sample. All i said is that hes 3b vs. hero is big.

If it was like 12% AND polarized over a decent sample i would agree, but w\o that info we can just get dominated a lot, while by 4b we can get rid of lots of hands better.

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09-18-2014 , 09:52 AM

#25

bailashtoreth

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by karv

what are the other hands u shove here? overshove looks extremely spazzy.
Yeah, we have huge equity, but we do want to play poker not bingo

It seems a lot of people under-value fold equity. Will AT, QT, or A6 call that shove? In most cases, no. That is a big deal.

You can balance this line by doing it once in a while with a big hand.

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