Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep 10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep

02-16-2009 , 04:35 PM
This is from a live game, CO is a solid TAG, BTN is on the wild side.

Chips:
Hero (MP): $41
CO: $40
BTN: $24

Hero is dealt 33, opens for $0.50
CO calls, BTN calls.

Flop ($1.65): J T 3 2 hearts.

Hero bets $1.25
CO raises to $3.00
BTN reraises all in for $23.50!!!!

Hero...

Now before you say snap-call, please consider CO is yet to play and I am 400BB deep.

Edit: And my image at the table is very nitty. We've been playing every week for about 2 years now so lots of history.

Last edited by alon.albert; 02-16-2009 at 04:43 PM.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 04:47 PM
instashove
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 04:52 PM
there's no way you can fold 33 in that spot. You are very often against a combo draw, like KQhearts. Considering the deep stacks I would ask to run it twice or even four times.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenDeuce
there's no way you can fold 33 in that spot. You are very often against a combo draw, like KQhearts. Considering the deep stacks I would ask to run it twice or even four times.
I don't think I can fold either but I tell you, it wasn't easy either. We play together once or twice every week and while the stakes are small, we are a very competitive bunch and hands like this get seared into memory

Playing with these guys as much as I do, I have a pretty solid read on them. BTN will never just call with TT or JJ preflop so I pretty much knew I was calling him but CO is a problem. Him having 400BB makes this very tricky. I know he never calls or shoves with less than a set here. Even if he has odds in a 3 way pot, this guy will never risk 400BB on a draw or a pair, even 2 pair.

I was thinking of calling and folding to a CO shove. I don't know I could pull that off though. If he did shove, I'm not sure I could'a found the fold even though I knew I was beat.

As it played, he folded and BTN (as expected) showed KJo for top pair and back door flush draw. Turn was another heart which made it interesting but I hit quads on the river. He later said he didn't realize he was so deep when he shoved.


Huge pot, up $27 and bragging rights
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:30 PM
I really don't think that calling and folding to a CO shove is good at all. You will have put in 60% of your stack at that point and will be getting better than 5:1 on your money with only $17 left into an $88 pot.

If you're going to fold, just fold to the BTN shove. I think calling/folding is kind of spewy considering the sick odds that we're going to be getting if CO shoves. Plus, wouldn't a solid TAG be 3betting TT/JJ a lot IP? - I'm not sure if you're playing 9 handed or 3 or 6 or what here btw but if it's 6 or less a solid TAG should be 3betting those most of the time.

Considering that a solid TAG also isn't going to be minraising his sets on such a drawy board I am quite inclined to believe that the TAG does not have a set and is probably trying to draw cheaply. So I think this should be a call BTN shove/call CO if he shoves too.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
I really don't think that calling and folding to a CO shove is good at all. You will have put in 60% of your stack at that point and will be getting better than 5:1 on your money with only $17 left into an $88 pot.

If you're going to fold, just fold to the BTN shove. I think calling/folding is kind of spewy considering the sick odds that we're going to be getting if CO shoves. Plus, wouldn't a solid TAG be 3betting TT/JJ a lot IP? - I'm not sure if you're playing 9 handed or 3 or 6 or what here btw but if it's 6 or less a solid TAG should be 3betting those most of the time.

Considering that a solid TAG also isn't going to be minraising his sets on such a drawy board I am quite inclined to believe that the TAG does not have a set and is probably trying to draw cheaply. So I think this should be a call BTN shove/call CO if he shoves too.
Yeah, in a vacuum, you are right but knowing these people really well, I know CO will sometimes call with TT (maybe not JJ) especially if I'm the original raiser. I know the line sounds crazy and like I said, I'm not all that sure I could have found the fold. I probably woulda called feeling really sick about it.

Does anyone else here think it's an insta call/shove given the stacks invloved though? I mean, I did end up calling but I sure as heck had to stop and think it out first.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:43 PM
You realize that calling and then folding you have to be correct that CO has TT/JJ 5 out of 6 times.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alon.albert
I was thinking of calling and folding to a CO shove.
whatever you do, don't do that.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alon.albert
Yeah, in a vacuum, you are right but knowing these people really well, I know CO will sometimes call with TT (maybe not JJ) especially if I'm the original raiser.
Not to be rude here, but this hand is extremely player specific, just as many home games are. If you have 2 years of history with the players, we can't help you.

In the end, it is a math problem. How likely is it for both of them to raise like this with something you beat? If it is +EV, shove. If not, fold.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
You realize that calling and then folding you have to be correct that CO has TT/JJ 5 out of 6 times.
Yeah, if you knew the like I do, you wouldn't be surprised.

If he shoves 400BB over the top, he's got the nuts 9 out 10 times. This guy can fold top 2 to an all in on a rainbow flop if the stacks are deep.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alon.albert
Yeah, if you knew the like I do, you wouldn't be surprised.

If he shoves 400BB over the top, he's got the nuts 9 out 10 times. This guy can fold top 2 to an all in on a rainbow flop if the stacks are deep.
Then I would say your read is wrong about him being a solid TAG and he's actually kind of a scared nit due to the following:

a) he minraises on a drawy board
b) he folds top 2 in a home game with people that are wild like BTN and have unusually large calling ranges
c) he seems like he's scared money as you stated again regarding folding top 2 when deep in a home game

Regardless, think about his flop minraising range and what % of that range is exactly TT/JJ. I think it's pretty small in terms of his overall range there and you are giving up massive equity vs BTN if you fold here.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
Not to be rude here, but this hand is extremely player specific, just as many home games are. If you have 2 years of history with the players, we can't help you.

In the end, it is a math problem. How likely is it for both of them to raise like this with something you beat? If it is +EV, shove. If not, fold.
Yeah, you have a good point here. As for the math, yeah, I was almost 100% sure I was beat if CO over shoves. I call BTN's raise all day, guy's a maniac.
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote
02-16-2009 , 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
Then I would say your read is wrong about him being a solid TAG and he's actually kind of a scared nit due to the following:

a) he minraises on a drawy board
b) he folds top 2 in a home game with people that are wild like BTN and have unusually large calling ranges
c) he seems like he's scared money as you stated again regarding folding top 2 when deep in a home game

Regardless, think about his flop minraising range and what % of that range is exactly TT/JJ. I think it's pretty small in terms of his overall range there and you are giving up massive equity vs BTN if you fold here.
He actually makes some good folds with top two. It all depends on the action and who it's coming for.

You do make a very good point that I failed to notice till now. He would never minbet with a set on that board. Had I thought of that, I would have had a much easier time...
10NL - Live Game - Bottom Set - Very Deep Quote

      
m