Kinda std spot but i think its interesting how to play all the streets in conjunction.

I don't have a ton of info on villain because i've had a lot of tables running during this session. What I do know about him is that I suspect his flop range to be wide based on how often he's been at the turn in previous hands. I decided to bet rather than check because i know him to be somewhat passive (he'll take small one street stabs and quit for the most part) and that if he does bet, he generally bets small.

Question is basically, how is my turn+river play if we assume that villain can have a reasonably wide range here and will rarely bluff turn+river? Does anyone play flop differently given the info I knew before the hand? And I guess it's worth asking if anyone would c/c a blank river? All comments appreciated


Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN/SB: $106.90
Hero (BB): $101.20

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BB with K J
BTN/SB raises to $3, Hero raises to $10, BTN/SB calls $7

Flop: ($20.00) 8 T 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $12, BTN/SB calls $12

Turn: ($44.00) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets $22, Hero requests TIME, Hero calls $22

River: ($88.00) J (2 players)
Hero bets $57.20 all in

if you think he has a wide range, just fire again. c/c strikes me as your worst option.

i think the call on the turn isnt very good..What are you gonna do when a blank comes?? And why do you shove?? To get value from a ten?

river shove is fine - turn is pretty bad imo, he has lots of Ax which beats you for one.

Do you know what I am saying?

I think against this type of player I would bet flop bigger if I did bet it.

and Mr. Smaug is right he's bluffing better hands a fair ammount

Turn c/c is OK because you're getting pot odds and most villains check back A high there, assuming that he checks back most rivers w/ his air most of the time.

i like turn but whats up with river?

Seems really FPSy. Did you have a HUD running during this? It'd be good to try to construct a 3bet defense range for him.

River sucks without a sick read imo, so much of his range just gets there and he isn't going to pay you off with worse often. If he bluffs 2 streets a lot, c-c is fine but you said he doesn't so why not c/f?

this was my thought pretty much exactly at the time, i was planning to c/f river, and jam Jx and Kx for value from Tx and also I think I can jam the Js cause he has J9/QJ in his range here

i didn't have a HUD or else this would prob be a lot easier. Not sure why you think a lot of his range got there, it's only really 79 and i'm not sure if he defends 79s. but yeah i agree its hard for him to pay me off i just didnt think c/c river was great cause he probably only jams flushes and straights but this way i get called by Tx/Jx sometimes (which i think is a much larger chunk of his value range combo wise but i could be wrong there)

he doesn't bluff 2 streets a lot, but i kinda interpreted the turn as one street here, not sure if that was a stretch based on what i know of his tendencies.

I was assuming c-c turn was done because his flop call range was super wide so I didn't really mean to say that he got there a ton as much as I meant that he has a lot of hands that beat us on the river (and some that got there like 79/Q9/bd spades). If a lot of hands beat us, and it is hard for him to pay us off, then how can we valueshove here and show a profit?

If check-call isn't profitable, and we can't shove for value, then isn't the best line to just c/f (neutral EV)? I'm aware this is really exploitable but I don't think we have to worry about it here.

yea i agree w ur logic i just think that a large # of Tx/Jx are in his range and that a backdoor flush or 79/Q9 is relatively rare (although i forgot Q9 and that might mess up my count). this could easily be a c/f but then i think a lot of my assumptions about why the turn is good are wrong and i might just be best folding (or shoving?) there.

flop is fine. turn is bad. river is worse.

Yeah it is a weird weird spot. My main issue with how you played it is the inconsistency between your turn and river motives. So turn we are c-c because his range is wide, we have sd value and we don't expect to get multi-barreled.

If villain was the type to double-barrel, then c-c river is good but c-c turn would be awful. If villain will only bluff once, c-c turn is good but c-c river is bad, so you can c/c c/f river comfortably. Once you hit the J on the river things get weird. I want to bet to get value from Jx but there are as many straights in his range as there are Jx (assuming he only gets here with a Jx that has some straight draw), so since those cancel out we need him to have and call with Tx more often than any other hand that beats us and I just don't think we do that. c/f seems gross and goes against my instincts but I think it is optimal.

Turn and river seem very conflicting to me. I kind of see where you are coming from, but I think you might be overanalyzing this a lot. Just because he could have QJ or J9 here doesn't make this a good spot for this line.

I think that while you might look kind of FOS here, you still over rep your hand. I think 10s will fold and trips call. I think you should just give up turn if you think this is a passive opponent.

from your post style I can guess that he called and you won the hand.

anyhow I think turn is pretty marginal and probably breakeven.
turn stats might be helpful.

edit: the poster upstairs ^ wrote exactly what I had in mind.

swing and a miss, besides who cares about results?

lol

it was an anecdote guys

Turn seems super spewy to me.

at first i thought wtf at turn play but now i think i get it and i like it. i think you have to bet the river and that standard i dont think that he continues with his bluffs with that card and im not even 100% that he shoves and hand like j9 there. and he does have qjs j9s and 10s like q10 k 10 a10 the jack improves hes hands and he is far more likly to have a a j or a 10 in his hand then an 8.

i like it. Turnplay and thoughts about River are fine imho, given your Reads. And once we hit i can´t see any other option beside shoving.

i dont get it, you put him on a bluff on the turn (a narrowish range of bluffs no less since some draws got there on the river, and his A high floats beat you on the turn), then go for thin value on the river. make up your mind about what is going on in this hand in the very least.

also, you check the turn because you think he is passive, then call a bet anyway. do you have a specific read that his bets are weighted towards bluffs? i doubt he is semi-bluffing pretty much ever if normal-passive. your read that he calls the flop wide is meh at best: way too small sample size with no info from showdowns. when villain keeps calling flops in these spots, but i dont witness spew or constant floats, i am much more likely to give him credit for a mini heater than bad K high or worse floats.