Full Tilt Poker $100 + $5 Heads Up No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players
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Hero (BB): t1500 M = 50
BTN/SB: t1500 M = 50

Pre Flop: (t30) Hero is BB with 6 6
BTN/SB raises to t40, Hero raises to t130, BTN/SB calls t90

Flop: (t260) 5 3 7 (2 players)
Hero bets t200, BTN/SB calls t200

Turn: (t660) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN/SB bets t660


As title says, first hand against a random.

My questions:

1. 3-betting/flatting pre are obv both reasonable, anybody have a strong preference first hand against a random?
2. Flop size
3. Turn plan. If we bet, are we bet/fold or bet/call, and what size? If we check like I did, are we getting it in after he pots it? And what I actually care about most, how close do you think it is? I think you learn most when you find out spots you think are marginal actually aren't, so let me know how obvious you think it is.

id never 3bet this pre

4/4 of people I've talked to have said this now fwiw.

yeah really dislike pre, dont see any reason to 3 bet at all
and also c-bet size is too big, 130-165/jam would by my std.

3bet looks horrible without reads

1. Strong preference for flatting.
2. 150.
3. If we bet turn, underbet/continue. If we check turn, check/continue. How close or obvious is this spot? Villain isn't repping much credibly, and it doesn't get much better than this board/action for 66 when we 3bet it the first hand, so I don't see us ever folding on the turn. It's just that I think we're needlessly creating a marginal situation in a big pot OOP first hand by not flatting pf.

For range reasons, or because 130-165 is optimal with 66 specifically?

1. I dont ever 3bet this pre without reads.
2. i will generally bet 160-180 at flop against a random. What are we hoping calls us really? Probably naked overcards are the hands we beat that we will target with a cbet so I think our betsize has to mirror that a little more.

^^^ But i think this kinda shows why 3betting this hand without any reads is bad. We get in so many spots postflop where we are going to have a marginal hand against a player w have no idea how he is going to play postflop.

Don't like 3bet either,fact that is vs a minirasie makes me hate it more : /. I'm flatting almost always,shoving if he opens to 3x sometimes.

I'm fine with your cbet size,i'd generally cbet to a smaller size,but first hand against randoms you don't have to balance or anything,and taking the pot on the flop would be just <3.

On turn i guess i'd b/f like 300. As played,meh he is so polarized there. Think i'd fold.

wheee I post and I learn things, 2+2 is ez game. I'm assuming it's just because 66 plays much better with a bigger stack to pot ratio and it's hard to realize our equity OOP, especially on drawy flops? I felt like you get a lot of folds pre and obv have a lot of the ATC equity that comes when flops come A83r etc which is why I 3-bet (also I has pair), but then again I'm not 3-betting with 22 so I guess I should have some intuitive understanding of why this sucks.

Still interested in flop/turn decision. I'm usually c-betting this flop less especially against a good player with my range, but I'm of the mind that early on against someone you have no history against and may be fishy, play your hands optimally as is and don't worry about how it affects other hands in your range.

i think flopsizing is good for fleecing fish. and i would assume this guy is fishy as, most regs will steer clear of mers. fish really will often call here with all kinds of hands that we are ahead of. i def understand arguments for betting less on the flop, and generally i agree, but not when playing your standard fish.

on the turn, my guess is that it is a fairly marginal spot, but i think as played we have to get it in here.

i agree with most, that flatting pre is best. but if we 3bet, i am def cbetting this flop and i like the betsize. then i think i check turn just like mers did too.

I'd like to hear more about this actually. Did mers cover all of the reasons why, or is there more?

people dont fold to 3bets and 66 is hard to play since flop will contain almost always one overcard and we have no clue about floating/bluffingfrequency

Thanks a bunch.

I wouldn't 3bet pre, especially first hand v a random, as its way too hard to play.

I think flop sizing is ok, maybe a little large although taking into account the vulnerability of our hand to another card I think that is ok but in terms of what we will be betting here with other hands that miss then you will probably want some kind of consistent bet sizing.

Turn - I mean he could easily be floating two overs, A high. He is obviously calling any pair. Probably doesn't have that many 3s in his range but hands like 78 are a definite possibility. I don't like any bet/call or bet/fold, he is going to fold so much of his air on the turn, you easily rep an overpair and I can't imagine he would bluff that card much. I just don't think you maximise value versus his bluffs by taking a bet line.

So I would prefer a check jam. He will hope to take you off all your high card hands so I expect a decent amount of air here. You will run into 7+ some but there is a decent chance he wouldn't even bet some marginal made hands here given you would likely only have 6 outs to improve v them and if he gets shoved on he wouldn't be too happy.

Obviously its pretty tough readless but I think these are reasonable assumptions. One thing that does concern me if the fact he just pots the turn, I have no idea what that means, maybe he is just trying to prevent you from jamming on him by making it look like you have no FE. Maybe a pair+draw/draw?

I don't think its a bad spot for you overall since if he is calling a reasonable range pre and floating this flop with two overs then you are going to make so many chips a decent amount of the time when he folds. Also when you are beat you likely have 6 outs to improve which while not great obv adds to your equity.

3betting pre is not as bad as everyone says it is; however, 3betting and then not knowing what to do after a cbet is bad. you'll rarely know how an unknown will play his first hand so don't 3bet.

Once you get to the turn, since you have no reads etc, I think the only thing you can do is revert to absolute hand strength. your hand on that board is strong enough to get it in, I'd lean more towards betting for straight value but checking is fine.

flop bet is too big imo

infact, if guy is a complete rando/fishcake I might mash pot button and get in in on flop lolz, not sure about this with these reg speeds though

I'm too stoned to read all that.

I always flat this pre. Even in cash where 3-betting wouldn't be that big of a problem.

Flop: I usually go 160 but that's more for balance. With 66 specifically I like 200.

Turn: Super close imo. And a lot of the reason why we don't 3-bet in the first place. His range will include some floats, but also a pretty big part that has you crushed. I guess we prolly have to get it in, but stupid spot to get in first hand.

If we bet again, it would be very close between b/f and b/c I think. And that's obv not a good thing.

1. Calling is superior, imo. I just don't like 3-balling with mid pps against unknowns first few hands. If I am going to 3-bet, which I won't, I'm going on the smaller side...110 ish. I will 3-bet a little less than 3x depending on the opponent / time in the match, though it's not my default.

2. Flop bet size is fine, I really can't quibble between 170 or 200 because it's going to lead to a big ol' pot on the turn anyway without a hell of a lot of improved equity. I think 200 is better in that if it gets the hand over with, good. I really don't want to have to play the turn in this spot against an unknown.

3. Turn: Now that he calls (really, this is the problem with 3-betting 66 so early pre), I'm going to assume that his PSB of 660 does not polarize his range, but makes it quite strong - slow played KK/AA, set of 5s/7s / A7, 76, etc. I'll lean to a 7 basically saying "oh ****, I have the best hand now he checked, jam pot." Makes me a lot lot lot happier if I had 88 in this spot than 66.

Honestly, it's a fold and decision is NOT close in this spot. You are -330for the hand right now, I think if you shove, your EV will be even worse. So you can probably fold comfortably and be OK with making the right move.

(edit): You know, it could be close, or not close, you really don't have much idea. If his range is polarized, then it's a fairly easy shove. If it isn't, easy fold. Right? The thing is he potted it and feels committed; you can hope he's one of the asses that pots / folds AQ here, but I think you're assuming too much for the first hand.

Barry

So you want it either bigger or smaller but 200 is the sweet spot of suckitude?

tbh, I'm pretty unconvinced by this line of reasoning. Yes, 3-betting puts us in some close spots that make us squirm a little more. So? If this is a round-a-bout way of saying "we can't realize our equity" (as I think spamz means it), fine, but otherwise, easier does not always equal better. 3-betting also makes our lives "easier" when 50-60% of the time he folds pre, and the remaining however many % he folds on sweet flops like A82, sometimes we hit sets, etc etc. Obv I'm understanding that 3-betting is bad in this situation because of who's saying it and some of the reasons, but "it's hard to play and you get in close spots" is kind of a meh one for me.

The other concept I'm lukewarm about is "it's first hand, we don't know how he plays yet". We can approximate based on the general distribution of randoms and do pretty well. People also suck first hand.

fwiw, I got it in and held against ATo, but keep discussion going imo

Nearly always smaller,

but sometimes when you mash pot first hand they are like f this I have a pair I am gonna ship... but maybe this is more for turbos, don't really like it as much for reg speeds.

Yay, this means my turn advice was absolutely correct for all time and space in all possible universes!!!

This restores my confidence in poker.

Easier does not equal better. Actually, I've turned and I think against a random we should c/f. And I think my main problem with 3-betting is that we very often end up in a spot on the turn in which we should fold a lot of equity. I have no idea if that made sense cause I can hardly feel my hands. Jeez..

To be honest this was one of the best flops which you could hope for with this hand. I would just call pre flop. Chances are next time you 3-bet a small pp you will face a tough decision again... I hate putting myself in these tough spots... flop looks ok, I have no idea about the turn