BTNvsBB Preflop Spot with TT - Micro Stakes Pot Limit and No Limit

BTN just sat down so assume unknown

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker HUD and Database Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
BTN ($10.51) [VPIP: 25% | PFR: 20% | AGG: 55.6% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 20]
SB ($16.32) [VPIP: 32% | PFR: 24.4% | AGG: 26.5% | 3-Bet: 10.8% | Hands: 1388]
HERO ($13.56) [VPIP: 26.5% | PFR: 22.4% | AGG: 33% | 3-Bet: 10.9% | Hands: 91603]
HJ ($9.50) [VPIP: 23.7% | PFR: 16.5% | AGG: 27.5% | 3-Bet: 9.4% | Hands: 139]
CO ($10.00) [VPIP: 27.9% | PFR: 22% | AGG: 42% | 3-Bet: 7.3% | Hands: 315]

Dealt to Hero: T

HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.22, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.94, BTN Raises To $2.60, HERO ?

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07-21-2019 , 08:43 PM

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

ship

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07-21-2019 , 08:45 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,585

Quote:

Originally Posted by ionutd

ship

What's the worst pocket pair you ship?

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07-21-2019 , 08:49 PM

bailashtoreth

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

What's the worst pocket pair you ship?

Villain hasn't 3-bet once in 20 hands (besides this one of course).... Not sure I'm comfortable shipping.

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07-21-2019 , 08:50 PM

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,585

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailashtoreth

Villain hasn't 3-bet once in 20 hands.... Not sure I'm comfortable shipping.

These stats are gathered after the fact.

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07-21-2019 , 09:02 PM

invalidname94

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 514

BB vs BTN I’m 3betting 88+, ATs+, KQ+, maybe QJs. Once he 4bets it’s a player read but I think you have enough equity to ship with TT+ and AK. I wouldn’t call any of your range just 5bet shove/fold. Can’t fold out your whole 3 bet range besides QQ+ unless you 3bet super nitty so you’ll have to look at what hands you 3bet with, and decide on how many of them you want to continue with. The wider you 3bet, the wider you have to shove on 4bets

Last edited by invalidname94; 07-21-2019 at 09:07 PM.

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07-21-2019 , 09:02 PM

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

I ship too, and the worst PP that I do that with is this one.

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07-21-2019 , 09:04 PM

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by invalidname94

The wider you 3bet, the wider you have to call shoves.

Huh? He's OOP so he's faced w/ a 4bet not a shove.

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07-21-2019 , 09:06 PM

invalidname94

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 514

Yeah, sorry world, edited my response because I realized the 4bet wasn’t a shove from the button.

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07-21-2019 , 09:13 PM

#10

bailashtoreth

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

These stats are gathered after the fact.

OK. Then I don't think I shove here. Why assume this unknown is 4-betting 99, 88, 77, Ax, Kx?

What range do you give villain to 4-bet? 88+,ATs+,A5s-A2s,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo? Something like that? Anything else? Wider? Tighter?

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07-21-2019 , 09:24 PM

#11

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,585

Quote:

Originally Posted by bailashtoreth

I think most people 4bet with a polarized range. The range you gave is very linear.

I'd put his 4bet range at JJ-AA/AKs/AKo

A2s-A5s/K5s-K8s/Q7s/Q8s and then maybe some T7s/85s type hands.

I am getting crushed by his value range obviously. But we have the 5th nuts and calling sucks.

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07-22-2019 , 12:21 AM

#12

Brokenstars

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 16,104

I think I would just fold. Unknowns 4bets in these positions aren't usually bluffs at all.

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07-22-2019 , 12:33 AM

#13

bailashtoreth

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 2,326

Quote:

Originally Posted by DooDooPoker

The range is somewhat merged, yes, but we are talking about micros here.
Most don't polarize their ranges, but that's just my experience. I think you're right. If the bet had been a little smaller, you could call, but with the bet size (in relation to stack size), you really need to raise or fold. I'd err on the side of folding.

I agree with Brokenstars that 4-bets at this level are usually value.

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07-22-2019 , 01:17 AM

#14

DooDooPoker

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Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,585

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brokenstars

I think I would just fold. Unknowns 4bets in these positions aren't usually bluffs at all.

I think you and Balias are correct. I did end up shipping in game - but I think it is a mistake.

Results

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

NL Holdem $0.10(BB)
BTN ($10.51) [VPIP: 19.9% | PFR: 15% | AGG: 41.1% | 3-Bet: 3.5% | Hands: 293]
SB ($16.32) [VPIP: 32.3% | PFR: 24.2% | AGG: 27.4% | 3-Bet: 10.3% | Hands: 1496]
HERO ($13.56) [VPIP: 26.5% | PFR: 22.4% | AGG: 33% | 3-Bet: 10.8% | Hands: 91971]
HJ ($9.50) [VPIP: 24.1% | PFR: 16.9% | AGG: 26.2% | 3-Bet: 7.9% | Hands: 167]
CO ($10.00) [VPIP: 25.8% | PFR: 20.7% | AGG: 44.7% | 3-Bet: 7% | Hands: 384]

Dealt to Hero: T

HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.22, SB Folds, HERO Raises To $0.94, BTN Raises To $2.60, HERO Raises To $13.56 (allin), BTN Calls $7.91 (allin)

Flop ($24.12): 9

Turn ($24.12): 9

River ($24.12): 9

Spoiler:

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07-22-2019 , 05:08 AM

#15

ionutd

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 13,624

sry, I meant ship vs confirmed competent v
and I think it's correct to ship at least 88+ and a good amount of the AXs you 3b vs a guy 4b aggressively

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07-22-2019 , 10:04 AM

#16

nar160

journeyman

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 367

The math in this spot is reasonably straightforward. Expect ~33% vs his 4b/c range unless he's looser (AQ, 99). To make 5b +EV you need him to F5 ~ 40%. If your local reg population 4b bluffs enough, it's a clear jam. If not, it's call or fold.

FWIW, as a default I 3/5 here with 99+, AQ+, ATs, AJs, KQs. But I expect to get enough folds to make the weaker end of that at least neutral EV, and I don't call 4b in this spot.

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07-22-2019 , 10:22 AM

#17

Ojune

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2017 Posts: 5,171

shoving all day from these positions, you don't want to give 3 cards for free

edit : okay no, I saw the dude's stats, just fold

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07-22-2019 , 12:46 PM

#18

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

vs an unknown I'm shipping all day

It can never really be that bad if he is opening wide otb which most people will

vs this guy, I'd mix pre (lean toward flat tbh) and as played fold to 4b

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07-22-2019 , 03:58 PM

#19

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fleetttt

vs an unknown I'm shipping all day

It can never really be that bad if he is opening wide otb which most people will

vs this guy, I'd mix pre (lean toward flat tbh) and as played fold to 4b

I agree with you for a bb vs btn that's unknown.

I just wanted to point out that your conclusion doesn't follow from the bolded although they are correlated of course.

What I mean is the % of the time that a person opens OTB doesn't necessarily tell you how wide they 4bet or how wide they call a 5bet shove. They should be defending wider if they open a wider range but if they are doing it as an exploit they may not be.

In other words, you can only weakly say that higher RFI leads to wider 4bets and wider 5bet calls.

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07-22-2019 , 04:16 PM

#20

Barfunkel

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,403

Why 3-bet if you're not gonna ship it? TT is too good a hand to waste as a bluff. If you're not happy shipping then flat, you're guaranteed heads up and TT isn't that difficult to play postflop, even OOP, against a wide range. If he flops an ace with A2 or something, you're not gonna lose a big pot and if the flop is like 237 you'll be happy.

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07-22-2019 , 04:18 PM

#21

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by WorldzMine

I understand your point

What I mean is that if villain is opening wide and not 4betting enough for jamming TT to be ok, they are either over-folding or over-defending by flatting. So the EV we lose by 5betting should be made up for by the EV we gain by seeing flops or winning pre when villain folds.

I'm not exactly sure where the equilibrium point is obviously because it's too complicated to solve, but that's my opinion purely from an understanding of EV and previous experience.

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07-22-2019 , 04:21 PM

#22

DooDooPoker

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 18,585

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barfunkel

your whole post assumes I get 4bet everytime.

This is not the case.

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07-22-2019 , 04:26 PM

#23

WorldzMine

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4,604

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barfunkel

Why 3-bet if you're not gonna ship it? TT is too good a hand to waste as a bluff.

As an exploit against people who 4bet too tight. Vs an unknown you should be likely be 5bet shipping, unless, you think your pop 4bets too tight. If you don't 3bet TT as a default your 3bet ranges become too tight and you are missing value. Their's no "hand wasting" involved. Not 3betting would be the actual example of "hand wasting". That thought is what leads fish to flat their big pairs or AK type hands or min raise them. As a result, they miss tons of value more times than not, causing them to lose overall. Not that just that is the overall cause of their losing but it sure doesn't help them.

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07-22-2019 , 10:04 PM

#24

simplelessons

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 3,012

Am I missing something? Half the people in the thread talking about stats after 20 hands? Is it time to put out my Nitmas tree already? Shove and don't think twice or call.

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07-23-2019 , 09:07 AM

#25

Fleetttt

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by simplelessons

Am I missing something? Half the people in the thread talking about stats after 20 hands? Is it time to put out my Nitmas tree already? Shove and don't think twice or call.

95% of regs on 2+2 do this

Every time I see it I'm seriously like

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