Heh dude I have a Property final on Monday I should be studying for (I'm a law student like villain in your story), but this is a nice diversion. I was gunna take an hour break anyways.

The thing is you don't want to make it overtly obvious you are transitioning from "just friends" to "something more." Words to indicate this are not necessary. Your behavior alone should communicate most of what you want to get across to her. Words are misinterpreted, misspoken or disregarded. Behavior is what women will read. There's no reason to make it clear to her you are pursuing her. In fact, it's better NOT to. You want to push and pull and make her wonder if you are interested. This element of mystery and suspense will increase her attraction in you even more. If you just overtly fawn over her, she'll quickly start wondering why this was so easy and if she can do better.

Ithaca does suck (no offense) as far as a social scene goes. It doesn't have to be a bar. It can be a cool cafe or a museum or anything she'd be interested in. Hell, a mini golf course (although it's most likely too cold for that now) or a bowling alley. But please take the lead. Don't let her dictate all the action. Make it seem like it's a done deal that she's coming and it is no option (do this in a playful, aloof way, of course).

To frame the DVD: "have you ever seen X? oh my gosh it's so funny it's my favorite movie. i own it! yeah! we should watch it!" and go from there. I'm not a huge fan of this as it's a bit too obvious, but something along those lines.

Once you are in the situation of initiating physical contact, well, I tend to hesitate giving advice here. My religious beliefs (while not as strict as some others) give me a different skew on this situation than most. My best advice is this: start out with light, non-intrusive contact and slowly escalate and both you and she are more comfortable with it. Don't just awkwardly plunge into kiss her or anything. DON'T BE TENTATIVE. Act with CONFIDENCE.

Don't wait for her to initiate anything. You take the initiative. You are awesome and you are trying to give her a chance to prove to you why you should like her. This is arrogant, but attempting to grasp this mindframe will improve your approach.

Stinger and GeddyLee, how old are you guys? Under 21 I assume? (One of you mentioned not being of age I believe)

Many do, my facebook wall is flooded. Certainly a lot more guys than girls, although I did just have a girl who I went out with and kissed a few times freshman year before getting friend zoned whom I've talked to maybe 3 times on AIM this semester and saw once out randomly send me a text tonight that basically said, "I heard about your win congrats! We should get coffee or something soon to catch up" which is pretty lol.

As for the girls above, girl 1 almost certainly has no idea, when I was out with her I told her that I play poker, "do pretty well", and plan on playing for a living after graduation. If she knows any more than that she certainly hasn't shown it. Girl 2 I'm not sure because our mutual friends def know. When I saw her out on Thursday she didn't mention it but also was possibly too drunk to carry on a conversation.

I am 21, girl 1 from my posts is 20 hence the underage mention. Girl 2 is older than me 22-24 range

lolz money grubbing women. does she have no shame? i googled your username because curiosity got the best of me, and you could use all this to your advantage, but do you really want to? Money is obviously a + when dating women, but I've always wondered what kind of situation it would be if I simply got a girl by blowing her away with wealth (which I don't have) rather than my personality. Obviously you have decided not to do this, and I think that's a good choice!

ive also always wondered how girls react when i tell them i play poker. I don't play professionally, but it is what I do to earn spending money a lot of the time, especially over the summer. Of course to me that's grinding 10/20 limit in AC or NL100 online, but to most people that seems significant. I had one romantic interest lecture me on the evils of gambling recently. I lol'd and informed her I had been playing for nearly 7 years now, but I appreciated her advice. She couldn't understand why I don't consider it gambling. Standard convo I'm sure many of you have had with people. Sometimes I wonder if I should just keep it to myself until things progress to another level.

Meh, everyone in this thread is still young. It takes time and experience to figure out how to do things smoothly. I **** up a lot and I'm in my mid-20s. I only recently became interested in really looking at the theory/psychology behind male/female interaction. I did well with women in HS, then was touch and go with a few girls for 3 years of college, then had a 2 year serious relationship which ended 6 months ago and here I am. So I am very much learning too, but I've also seen very good success lately. That's why I like posting on here, because my ideas can be openly challenged by others, even if I am an arrogant, tilty SOB about it sometimes.

Yeah after thinking about this more I think you're totally right about not overtly making any intentions known. I'll just try to iso her one on one next time we see each other out and have a good convo, maybe touch her arm a bit, try to find a point in the conversation to hang out. The venue thing would be so much easier in a big city though, the only cool cafe type places I know are places everyone knows and goes to all the time, and basically my social life here mainly involves going to my frat house or one of 5 bars. I think the "This place is great you have to check it out!" line is usually a great idea but just doesn't work well here. DVD sounds easier, although my female friend who is best friends with her comes over sometimes in group settings to watch stuff (actually just did today with "Carter" the new Lil Wayne documentary, awesome btw!), so I don't want her to get the wrong message. That said I realize it's more about my behavior/conversation initially than the invite at the end, and apparently she likes me at least some and I have yet to try to pursue her, so I should prob just do that already and stop thinking so much.

are these long posts worth the read?
in before im gay for cardrunners etc

I think you are getting the idea. It's going to take practice. I can sit here and spew all the theory I want in the thread all day, and while I may be correct (or may not be, but I think I am as most agree), it's completely different to put it into practice framing it with behavior and conversation.

It really has to do with your "inner game." Are you feeling self-confident? Attractive? Interesting? Funny? Consider the way you dress or prepare to go out. I act COMPLETELY different when I am dressed casually vs. dressed nicely.

also it sounds like girls friend zoning you is a pattern

to avoid this tease them more and act more alpha male and most importantly touch them more without them consciously realizing it (eg touching their hand to express a point)

Talked to a female friend about the situation with the girl I was talking about earlier in the thread. She told me I should just be honest with her and tell her what I think. Don't worry, I have no intention to follow this advice. But to be honest, when pressed for why I thought this was a bad idea, I couldn't exactly explain why.

Karak, since you're so staunchly opposed to just having "the talk," at least as initiated by the guy, I'd be interested to hear why you see this as such a loser move.

By the way, I did think it was funny that when she took my bait so readily the other day when I mentioned things she should do to de-stress during finals and included "call me to see if I have time for a coffee break," and she said, "your suggestions are all lovely, the coffee break is my favorite...expect a text in a few days"...I now see a Facebook status update from earlier tonight where she mentions how much she hates coffee. We hung out at my place instead the other night, but she was saying her "favorite" plan included drinking something she hated, obviously because that plan included hanging with me.

I'm tempted, on Tuesday or so, to shoot her a text asking if she'd like to take a study break at Starbucks. Seems like there's a decent amount to be gleaned from it if she jumps at the chance to do something with me that she doesn't even enjoy doing.

That is the standard advice women give 98 % of the time. I always lol at girls when they tell me this. Rather than trying to convince them, I start questioning about how they formed attraction to their current or most recent boyfriend. By the time we are done with that conversation they get it. Push and pull and mystery and the unknown pulls them in more and more. A guy sitting down and have a cozy warm fuzzy talk won't do it. I mean it might work, but there's a better, higher probability way. Henry in EDF does a lot better job of explaining this than I do.

Basically when you approach her like this it seems sub-servient and needy. Plus, your words are often ignored and she's just going to read your behavior anyways. I just don't see any upside to it. i'd check Henry's post history in EDF on it as he articulates this much better than I do.

What makes you more interested in and intrigued by a girl? One who will come straight to you and confess her undying love or one who plays flirty games with you, never makes it clear if she likes you or not and makes you feel like you've accomplished something once you do attract her? Multiple that by 1000 and you'll understand where women come from. I think, at least. Women are confusing :-P.

Again, I think this girl is totally into you and you need to go for it. I hate coffee at this point, but I must admit this would be an interesting test. However I think drinks at a cozy, romantic, intimate bar are a better option.

Also I feel the need to throw my disclaimer up again: please don't take anything I say as gospel truth. Think through your actions and make your own decision. I'm just offering the options as I see them. Remember that I'm working with incomplete information and/or could simply be mistaken about something. I'm learning too.

I've been thinking about this a lot actually. For a serious relationship, I certainly do not want to get a girl by blowing her away with wealth. I think this ultimately leads to not being happy down the road, and also I value my character a lot and I'd rather be a good guy who gets less tail then a d-bag who gets more. That said, for short term fun, is it really any different than getting laid because one is extremely good looking? Both motives are superficial. I think the bigger issue is if I was casually hooking up and became attached, although I do trust my ability to read people and to override my emotions in this case, but never know for sure. That said I'm sure I'll continue to think about this.

I've worried about this in the past and been less than forward about playing poker, but I've come to the conclusion that I am a poker player and if a girl doesn't like that, it was never going to work out, so I'm just going to be forward. Also I think the type of girls who have one night stands are also very unlikely to be morally opposed to gambling and somewhat more likely to be intrigued. I absolutely never discuss dollar amounts although given my recent success it's going to be tougher to get around this, but I'll never be the initiator on that.

Yeah and I'm definitely a bit behind too because I was very shy growing up and didn't even kiss a girl til senior year of HS. I've come a long long way through college and have had a little bit of success this year although certainly less than I'd like. I'm very satisfied with most parts of my life at the moment but interacting with females (and strangers in general) is def an area that I can improve in. Glad I decided to post here I'm really enjoying having this discussion, I've lurked the EDF thread for a while and posted maybe once or twice very minor undetailed questions, just stumbled upon this one today and read all of it instead of studying lol.

also for stinger and geddy just for the hell of it why not check out pua (puaforums.com)


if you're getting friend zoned its most likely your fault by not getting her sexually attracted to you

i hate the edf thread. too many people thinking they are so elite, and not really any constructive advice. read it a few times and havent been back since.
edit: i hate when you think you feel your cell vibrating, and then when you take it out to look, its not vibrating. wtf.

Self-confident? In the past the answer was pretty much always no in social situations. I have definitely progressed a lot here though. It wavers a bit, I've definitely had nights this year when I've gone out feeling very confident, and other nights when I've felt no confidence. Lately I've been pretty confident for the most part though, although I've had little to show for it... I'm def aware of how huge this is though and just trying to work on feeling confident as often as possible.

Attractive? Meh, I mean I'm not hideous or anything but I could def stand to lose 20 lbs or so. Frustrating when I eat better and work out more than most non-athletes I know, but nothing I can do besides continuing to put in the effort

Interesting? I think I am. I think I definitely came off as very interesting to girl 1 especially. It depends a lot on how receptive the listener is though, sometimes I just feel like the person I'm talking to doesn't care and these uphill battles don't end well.

Funny? Again varies depending on who I'm talking to but I'd say I'm average or so and certainly a lot funnier than I was even a year ago.

Agree on the dress thing and another thing I notice is energy level, when I pregame by doing something active like drinking games or pool I'm generally pretty confident and social, when I pregame by sitting down and watching TV I get tired and if I go out on these nights I generally am far less social. Trying to avoid doing this from now on.

Overall I think my inner game is still pretty rough around the edges but when I think back to how bad it was 2-3 years ago I've really made big strides. Hopefully that trend will continue...

Admittedly my game was pretty terrible in the past but is coming along. I tease alot, second point is valid though I prob need to do that more

I'm 21, legal age in Ontario is 19 fwiw.

No, you've actually put it pretty well here actually. I once had a co-worker who I might have liked, but she was way too forward, told all of our common co-workers how much she was into me, etc...I was quickly scared off. To top that whole lovely thing off, she proceeded to ask me out in front of everyone. That was, umm, fun.

If for different timing, I'd agree that getting a drink is a better option, but you certainly understand the level of busy going on right now with law school finals...and there being a Starbucks right across the street from the school, I'm just trying to optimize the chance of getting some more face time in before we split off for Christmas break (plus she said she's abstaining from the bars until finals are over). That, and, like I said...she's given the go-ahead that coffee sounds good, she has separately admitted to the world that she hates coffee (honestly I'm not a fan of the stuff either, but obviously that's a pretty irrelevant obstacle, I can drink it when the occasion warrants it), and I'm interested to see if she'll jump at the chance to go grab coffee with me.

A quick coffee date isn't going to seal anything up at all for me, but it seems like a no-lose situation; either she comes along and does something she doesn't even like just for an excuse to hang around me, and gives me a pretty decent signal in doing so, or if she says she's too busy, I really don't think it'll be the end of the world. During finals, "too busy" is a legit excuse and not an overall blow-off.

Unless I'm persuaded to the contrary, pretty sure I'll shoot her a text on Tuesday night after my study group breaks and follow through on this plan.

I saw this and just wanted to add my own 2c. Don't fret too much about this. Speaking as an athlete, I gave up a long time ago on trying to look like a fitness model and worried more about my actual fitness instead. fwiw I'm 6'3" 230 lbs. and I've got a much thicker build than most guys I play hockey with but I've always been a bigger guy and I've accepted that it's kinda just the way it is. Some kids eat like machines and are built like toothpicks...others like myself could probably eat nothing but rice for 2 weeks and look like they've only lost 3 pounds at most.

Eating well and working out is more than half the battle. Whether you think it's making a difference aesthetically or not, those are great habits to develop because they'll keep you healthy and happy for a long time. We can only do the best we can with what we've got. Take confidence out of the fact that you're taking care of yourself.

I also think there's something to be said about how you present yourself. Good hygiene, respectable clothing attire, just generally looking well put together makes a big difference; I'd argue it's more important than washboard ribs and a slender frame. Anyone can do that.

stinger, this could be out of line, or another thread if you were willing, but im so curious about how you maintain a normal college life. you are in an extraordinary situation, but somehow are completely normal. i have many questions im curious about, and im sure others do too if youre open to any.

Definitely agree, I mean ideally both would be great, but regardless of my metabolism's limitations working out always makes me feel good about myself and super confident anytime I do it before going out.

I'd be happy to answer although I don't want to sidetrack the thread. Maybe a PM would work? Or maybe I could make another thread in this forum?

Geddy,

What up??

Just wanted to add +1 to:

1) because i'm not that guy -- awesome
2) tried calling 911 -- awesome
3) not kissing her confidently right away, and not having a plan after dinner

But try again next weekend with a new girl.

sent you a PM