If you're not carrying any debt into grad school, 1 or 2k shouldn't be an issue. Have you talked to other students at both places to get a sense of standard of living, transportation issues, etc? Can you be more specific on the location? We might be able to give better input that way.

Well the stipends are pretty comparable, but Connecticut vs. Northern/Southern California is a big step in cost of living in general. Basically due to the way things played out I have 2 offers in Northern California, 1 in Southern California, and 1 where I am now in Connecticut. I'm from LA so I know what it costs to live there, and the schools in California are all in pretty nice areas.

Honestly it probably won't be a factor, I'm becoming increasingly sure of where I want to go and feel like I'm just splitting hairs trying to make sure I've considered every possible angle. I have one more interview this weekend, but don't think I'll go to the school even though it is among the best in the field (good but not great research overlap for me).

As an update, out of 11 schools I got interviews at 6, 4 other schools I know already made decisions and 1 still hasn't gotten back I don't think. Four of the schools I interviewed with so far have made offers, one just had the visit weekend last week and one is coming up this week. The four schools I have offers from are all awesome and I would probably be totally fine flipping a coin and going to any of them. That being said, one of them just really felt like a good fit and like the students/department thought about the same types of problems that I do.

The main opposing force is that my adviser would really like me to stay and he did just get an assload of grant money, so the lab has a lot of momentum going for it. He is probably the only person I'd work for here, but he is definitely on the rise in the field and already pretty well known. He isn't always easy to work with but definitely picks good problems and tends to get good publications. Not really sure what sort of feedback if any I'm looking for on this aspect, just sort of writing it out to try to get my head straight.

The last factor is a school that has fewer people who fit my specific research interests, but is across the board probably the best in the field and has the most resources. I am still scheduled to talk with some professors on phone next week, but I'd be surprised if I got swayed towards this place, despite its great reputation. The students there also definitely seemed the happiest, for what its worth.

Lol don't worry about 1-2k dude. Go to the place that's the best fit for you -- research AND people-wise. Make sure it's somewhere you'll enjoy.

Definitely agree that potential quality of life is way more valuable than a few k of salary. Outside of school, I also found it pretty important to be living in a place that I enjoyed with people I could hang out with, potentially friends from other walks of life who are outside the grad school bubble, it really helps keep perspective and sanity.

For me the single most important piece of the academic side has been my relationship with my advisor, at the end of the day that's what it really comes down to. Can your work together, are you on the same page with expectations, does their research excite (not just interest) you? You also want to make sure that your advisor's funding, and thereby the projects you will be working on, is stable well aligned with your long term goals. I have some of friends who have been doing various research projects for four years as dictated by funding, and are just now realizing that it doesn't really come together as a dissertation. So now they have to do a whole bunch of extra work on top of everything else in order to graduate. Does your potential advisor have a record of graduating students relatively quickly? Despite the title, I've seen some who provide pretty poor advising and direction for their students and basically treat them as lab rats, while others really work with you to make sure you are on the track that you want to be on. It's hard to know all of this stuff coming into a program, but a good advisor can make the difference between graduating in five years and languishing for seven.

^^

That's why choosing the people is more important IMO than choosing the perfect research fit (your research interests are gonna change as you learn more anyway).

And re:$$ my top two schools offered me $12k and $25k lol

The stipend is low on the list of priorities. Focus on getting a good match.

Be sure to find out how long it takes for your potential advisor's typical student to finish the program. Some advisors are unethical *******s who just use grad students like slaves.

Even if you are focusing on nothing but money, consider this: if you pick a school that you have a good match with, presumably you will be more motivated to do your work. Based on that, you could draw the conclusion that your research itself will be stronger, thus increasing the quality of an NSF/NDSEG app. Add the EV of that to the stipends you are being offered.

One thing that sucks is that the top choice actually doesn't offer a stipend bonus for getting a fellowship. You are guaranteed funding the entire time you are there, but nothing extra if you get external money. They still do a good stipend overall though. I think at this point my main concern is if my top choice is going to burn me out. I'm at an interview weekend right now, and a grad student straight up told me to go to the school that is my top choice if I can work with a prof I talked to as an advisor. A professor here sounded like she was almost going to say the same thing after she asked where else I was looking, so I'm starting to lean that way more.

The guy is a giant in a bunch of fields and was really awesome to talk to at the visit weekend. His students all get awesome faculty jobs and as far as I can tell from my interview with him, he seems like he is a reasonable person. That program is basically an applied math type program, so I think I'd be coadvised by him (he is does control theory) and a biologist since my interest is mostly in biological systems. Like I said before though, it would be a huge opportunity to go to this department but the people there do seems pretty much focused on work 24/7.

One big problem is I couldn't go to the actual interview weekend so I had to go a few days early, everyone was super cool about it but I didn't get to meet the other prospectives so I don't have a good sense of who else I'd be around other than relatively brief student interactions. I'm definitely overanalyzing things at this point, hopefully next week when I'm done traveling I'll have a clearer head.

I don't think many places provide any bump for getting external funding. At least this was true when I was a student. The idea should be that the outside $$$ is more than what the department provides, which is the incentive. Also, better schools pretty much have an expectation that you'll secure funding.

If you're doing control theory using biological systems, keep in mind that this should translate into $$$ if you decide to go the non-academic route. Something to keep in mind.

so nice stipends.. in czech republic you got like 250$ a month by school for doing PhD..
i hope i will start my PhD in September after i finish my control systems master degree.
nice thread, subbed.

Being a graduate student basically amounts to having a low paid entry level job. The thing you are looking to maximize is your long term outlook. Go to the place that is going to maximize your chances of promotion into the job you want next (whether that is being an assistant professor or leaving academia). Downstream effects should almost certainly outweigh a few thousand extra dollars a year. This doesn't seem to be much different than what anyone else is advising, just a slightly different frame for it.

So I've bothered Wyman about this but am curious re: other opinions. I'm going to do a math postbac and likely then apply to grad school. I just got into this program:

http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/...rtificate.html

which is a formal, math-specific program.

OTOH, I could take general non-degree classes at Columbia or NYU

Brandeis pros: smaller campus, more interaction with prof's, some history of students from post-bac going straight to MA or PhD at Brandeis (don't have year-long period of applying to schools). Also: smaller classes.

Not sure how much to value that last one, especially since I have no idea what research interests I might have blah blah.

Pros of Columbia/NYU: name brand, better known professors (helps recs)

Fwiw, I transferred from a small liberal arts college to a big research university and liked the feel of the LAC *way* more.

Thanks in advance guys,
Mariogs

In general, I would recommend not enrolling in a certificate program. These programs tend to be developed for the labor market, and not for someone intending to do academic research later. Unless there is some history at Brandeis of students using the certificate program as a springboard to a degree program, I don't see any benefits. Why can't you take courses at Brandeis without being in a program?

These opinions are based solely on my experience with certificate programs across broad fields and the reasons they typically exist. Your specific fields and the specific institutions might result in different viewpoints.

I'd be interested in what Wyman's views are.

General: Bac programs are a waste of money. If you want to learn something, learn it. You only do a program like this if you have money to light on fire and need the credentialing for some reason.

Specific: The problem here is that mariogs may or may not have money to light on fire, and he DOES need credentialing. No one is going to accept him into a grad program with the coursework he's got under his belt, which is that of a very light math minor. But with the program, he gets 6 courses. My advice to him was -- if he does this -- to take 8-10 courses. This should be his full-time, 80hr/wk job. He's spending a lot of money, and he needs to get that value. I could see a top 50 but not top 25 school taking him with:
* 8-10 courses at Brandeis
* his coursework from Brown
* good letters from faculty at both places, but especially Brandeis because those people saw him in math courses.

Also, paying for an MA/MS in math is lighting money on fire. This makes you eligible for a negligible pay bump as a HS teacher or a job teaching as an adjunct at a community college for $2k/course. So seeing someone transition from the post-bac program to an MA program at Brandeis is really lol. But seeing someone get into the PhD program is a little better. I'd want to see WAY more of a track record before spending that kind of $$ though.

The problem is that I don't see the alternate route to grad school for him. Can you get a prof at NYU/Columbia to write recs when you're not even formally enrolled?

I'm a grinder, so I'd go the route that's free but way tougher -- sit in classes at Columbia and NYU, identify profs to meet and interact with, get well known. The problem is that this isn't gonna happen in undergrad classes. You need to do this in grad classes to get anyone of note's attention. That will take a couple of years.

Anyway, for an average bright student with piles of money laying around (or parents/grandparents willing to fund them), the bac might not be such an outrageous option. But neither is it a really good one. I think it's a hard decision, and one that's compounded by the fact that you can't be at all sure that you want to do math research given that you've only taken 3 or 4 baby courses in math.

@Wyman, thanks for the detailed response.

A few things:

1) I have no interest in wasting money, *but* the money is basically a non-factor.

2) If the classes are small enough at Brandeis I think it's possible to get meaningful recs. I don't think you have to take grad courses for this to happen; plenty of math majors go to grad school w/o having done grad work.

3) I mean, you're in the class. They'll write recs for you. That it doesn't go toward a degree doesn't impact ability to get a rec.

4) Idk why you're pro-the free way when money is a non-issue...

5) The post-bac not only credentials me and makes me able to apply to grad school but it'll also inform me more re: whether I want to do it.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm not directly sure how much it is weighted in pure math, but in every other quantitative field the thing that gets you into a program is recs from someone with whom you've done research. If you want a chance to make up for any issues with CV, get at least 1 solid research rec, someone who says you are prepared to do research at the graduate level.

This can be taken with a grain of salt because I'm in a different field, but if you can find someone who will help you get proficient enough in a particular area to do research for a year or so and get some meaningful work done, that can totally outweigh any other deficits. I came from a mostly engineering/math background and am going into the quantitative side of biology without having taken a bio class since freshman year of high school, but I got a research job in bio after I graduated college that totally made up for everything I was missing and got me into a lot of good biology grad programs this admissions cycle.

LOL -- without doing grad work or research? Almost none, I'd bet. The only reason I am giving the odds I am to your getting into a top 50 school is because you went an alternate route (via an I-Bank) and because your background is Brown (and either Brandeis, NYU, or Columbia). Your letters are for sure make-or-break for you.

So you'd register for the class and pay for it, but you wouldn't be in a degree program? That is different than I was envisioning, which is just sitting in the class (and what I would do, personally -- though keep in mind that's not what I'm recommending for you).

Second of all, your "they'll obviously write me a rec" attitude is pretty laughable. If you're sure you can get a (good) rec, then that's fine. But let me be clear -- I've definitely turned kids down before telling them that I didn't feel I could speak to what the letter-readers were looking for. I mean I'll write something for them, but I'll tell them flat out that it's going to be a middling letter because of XYZ and that I'd be happy to emphasize their strong suits such as ABC. If you're in my <pick-a-class> and get an A, I can speak to your ability to the clarity of your thought processes and your (proof-)writing and maybe as to your work ethic and whether you're a nice guy. I can compare those qualities to those of other students I've taught, even ones who've gone to grad school. But I can't give any indication of whether I think you'll succeed in grad school unless you've gone above and beyond and demonstrated an amazing intellectual curiosity. That means asking very good and deep questions, self-exploration and digging to get a deeper understanding of concepts, etc. This is something that mathematicians and scientists do instinctively, but it's not something that your random (even very good) student does.

And regarding my opposition to spending money: I see a lot of people who are really good at math and really good at research with amazing backgrounds coming from very good (grad) schools who are unable to land a reasonable job. By all means, spend the money and test the water. You were unhappy at the IBank, so give something else a shot. But if you end up doing this, you're talking minimum 5 more years before you're employed, probably 6, then probably 2-3 years more of post-doc before a TT job offer -- if you're lucky enough to get one -- and then what? 50k from Middle Tennessee State?

I think it's wonderful that you want to learn more mathematics, but I think your decision to jump into it as a career -- which is the only reason I could even fathom justifying 40k at Brandeis -- is incredibly premature. What happens when you decide it's not for you? 40k elsewhere for a post-bac in CS? Your post-bac doesn't give you any transferable skills. It ONLY gets you ready for grad school, and it doesn't even really do that IMNSHO.

Weren't you working your way thru Herstein? How is that coming?

Soooo...

Re: research/grad coursework. I think you're thinking of people at top 10 kinda places...which I have no delusion of going to...

When I say "they'll obviously write me a rec", it doesn't mean it'll be a good, I just literally meant that they'd be willing to write one despite being a non-degree student. In short, being non-degree wouldn't hurt in this regard, that's all.

We're really spinning our wheels on the money issue so, for now, let's treat it as if Brandeis were free.

So I haven't committed to being a mathematician. The way I see it, the Brandeis program lets me:

a) expose me to a *lot* more math so I can see if I want to do further study/work in it

b) assuming I am interested, it'll give me the requisite coursework to apply to grad school

Trust me when I say I appreciate how competitive math is. I'm sure Middle Tennessee State wouldn't be my first choice, but I think my preferences are a bit diff from most: I really value being able to do what I want, so if that's math and requires going to a rando school, I'd be more willing than most to do that. Also far from opposed to teaching at a liberal arts college (in fact, I think I'd prefer it but that's a ways off anyway).

As always, thanks for the help!

Why don't you just get a second BS? Shouldn't take more than 2 years max. You could seek out undergrad research opportunities while doing the degree.

Oh, is that what I'm thinking of?

.

Alright then...

I'm on ~p.80 but am in the middle of this CS/programming class (9-6 M-F blah blah). I think I told you about this?

Something I hadn't really considered. Thing is I really just wanna do the math part and don't have a need for a formal degree...idk

Let me put it this way:

I went to a good liberal arts school for undergrad, but not as well-known as Brandeis, etc. In the years around me, ALL of the kids that went to grad school did research as undergrads, except for one. This means they did 1+ semesters of research with a faculty member AND spent at least one summer on campus doing research (or the equivalent at an REU at a different school, possibly both). And we ALL took courses I would expect to find in the first year of a grad program -- these are way beyond what I'd consider normal undergrad electives (e.g., harmonic function theory, functional analysis, a reading course from a graduate algebra text).

You know I went to UM. I was admitted only after I got funding, despite winning a whole bunch of awards (math and other) as an undergrad and having done 3 summers and multiple semesters of research. My point in saying this is that grad programs (in math), since they are funding you, tend to be risk averse. They take people with backgrounds they are familiar and comfortable with.

Others went to good schools, but they are sort of on the boundary of the list of top 50 we looked at: Vandy, Florida, LSU, etc. And I can think of a really strong kid who went to Virginia in CS.

Even the average schools are getting candidates who have research and grad work under their belts is my point.

helpful to hear. not surprisingly, my sample's much smaller. hope i didn't come across as combative, you've been nothing but helpful