Starting this as a discussion thread. This came up on Twitter in a situation posted by Matt Savage today. A moves all in. B asks for a count. Dealer counts and says 49K. B says call. A wins the pot. It turns out A has 69K, not 49K. What's the ruling?

The ruling is that B must pay 69K.

I think this is an awful rule. There are infinite situations during a poker tournament where you rely on a dealer to count a bet. If in every one of those the dealer's count is meaningless, that means you are obligated to count every single bet you face. Which is going to tremendously slow down the game. And it places an obligation on you which just shouldn't be there. Especially if your eyesight isn't great, which mine isn't. What are the dealers being paid for if not to provide accurate information?

In this particular situation, if you want to place an obligation on a player to make sure the count is right, it should be on the player whose chips are being counted. He should know approximately how much he has, and it's important to him for the count to be right.

What does everyone think about this?


Edit: This also allows the all-in player to angle while remaining silent. If the count is too low but he wants to get called, he remains silent.

That's a terrible ruling. I agree it's the player whose stack is being counted to step in if it the dealer count is off.

Other players at the table should help verify the count while it's being made to help speed up the game. Pro players should especially do this.

At the WSOP, there should be more mandatory colorups to help count chips faster and more accurately.

For reference, here are the relevant TDA rules:

Its definitely up to the players to make sure what the dealer says is right. I mean how many times are you at a table when the dealer miscounts a bet. Happens all the time when im sitting. I usually only trust a few dealers i know to be good, the rest i pay close attention to everything they do

I disagree with this. If the player who chips are being counted wants to be silent, he has that right. The villain, for etiquette purposes, should know his chip count.......but he doesn't have the requirement to acknowledge it to the table (maybe Doyle has affirmed this before on a PAD?).

Plus, what if the guy is a mute (serious, but satirical, question)?

It's up to the dealer to provide a correct amount to the potential caller, and the potential caller's duty to make sure the dealer gets the count right and be meticulous in paying attention to make sure said count is correct (we all know the definition of "assume").

However, its tough both on player (who is right to assert the dealer is right when he counts) and the dealer (whose probably on hour 7 of a 8-hour shift) to expect a 100% conversion rate, which is what the ruling Todd suggests, implies.

Human error, happens. The fact you can't get every pot right, and expect it to be so; this factors into *my* decision.

Its like when an umpire misses a call in baseball; since we have no replay (besides HR/NO HR), unless there is a huddle that disagrees, "the call on the field stands". It should stand. Until we can somehow eliminate the percentage of error via technology (hence why internet poker is more efficient).

Ditto with the chips that are presently on the table. They are the ones that have to be matched. Just the way the game has to go.

The lesson we learn here: PAY ATTENTION TO THE DEALER. Hound the bastard if you have to, and make sure he "fans" out the chips properly.

And to (WSOP) tournament directors: instead of going around and talking to friends, when you *hear* an all-in near you, WATCH THE TABLE. Make sure the dealer is following up correctly, and count with and even help the dealer out. When everything is kosher, everybody is happy. A happy dealer, leads to happy players, which leads to happy tippers.

I also think astute neighbors need to pitch in here as well (and its good for your game to pay attention to every little detail).

Example: In an Epic event, Dan O'Brien was all the way across the table from me and threw out his bets in such a way that they were in a straight line facing me so I couldn't possibly tell how much had been bet. Every time, I asked, "How much is that?" and either Dan or the dealer answered. I relied on what they said and acted accordingly. Apparently I'm supposed to force the dealer to bring the chips closer to me and display them so that I can count them before acting since what they say is meaningless?


Edit: There are a ton of players with bad eyesight or who are color blind. Are they supposed to quit poker?

Couple of additional scenarios I've thought of or seen from twitter in this situation.

1) Player B says, 'I call 49k' or 'If its 49k I call'

What happens now?

2) Player B says 'call' and puts out 49k, then player C shove all in overtop. One issue here is stacks would be raked into the middle for the main pot correct (so how often would the count even get correctly verified in this case, clearly an issue). Additionally what if player B folds after the all in by Player C, then is player B asked to pay an additional 20k after the hand is over and he has folded (if the count is then verified as 69k?)

This stuff happens all the time and clearly a weakness to the rule. A blind/color blind player certainly has a huge disadvantage.

Two thoughts on this issue:

1. This was a WSOP rule for several years before being adopted by the TDA at the last summit. While it was in fact adopted, it was certainly not by acclimation as there are a number of TDA members who oppose this idea.
2. Prior to the "Moneymaker Poker Boom", I submit it was fairly easy for large events to find enough well trained dealers such that this was not a big issue. However, since that time I submit it is much more difficult, if not virtually impossible, for a TD to find fully compentent staff for events with several hundred or thousand initial entries and they have to pretty much take what they get.

So, what do you do? While this is likely not the best possible solution, it is a solution. Where do you put the responsibility? There is NO rule that I am aware of that requires a player to verbally state the exact amount of their remaining chips.

This +1,000,000 (The Jason Mercier Rule)

Also remember that if the calling player wins the pot with the miscounted amount then the all-in player will lose all his chips so it goes both ways.

I really like the discussion because it brings light to a ruling that is a difficult one to make but is consistently delivered by those using TDA Rules.

Matt if a player is blind and doesn't use a reader but depends on the dealer to not only tell him what the cards are but the bets also. How is this handled if dealer gives incorrect chip counts?

Terrible ruling, for many reasons already mentioned itt. It discriminates against players with physical handicaps, perpetuates distrust in dealers which will only slow down play because dealers arent held accountable for mistakes. I agree that experienced players should help out when they can, but we shouldnt be punished when we dont and shouldnt have to constantly monitor the action

related rant: things like this will continue to happen as long as the poker world insists on using the antiquated playing card and poker chip technology.

it's unfortunate that the poker world has not embraced electronic tables. it's kind of funny that technology permeates everything yet people still insist on playing poker the same way they did 100 years ago.

the transition to e-tables is inevitable and i think the WSOP should grow some balls and lead us into the future! WSOP 2013 on e-tables please!

along the same lines, i think there should be rules on how you are allowed to stack your chips. i think players should be required to keep them in stacks of 20. you should adopt it for your tournaments matt

i brought this up at the tables during the '11 series, and nobody agreed with me. part of the fun in live poker is building chip castles!

but i don't want to rely on the dealer or the player's count of a stack, i want to count it myself! and i can't count someone's chips if they are building the damn eiffel tower

I had a similar thing happen at the Rio except I was the one who gave the incorrect info. I pushed all my chips in (stacked in 20s big ones visible) and when the player asked how much the bet was I misunderstood and told him how much more it was to him. I said something like 4500 when the total bet was 6k.

He calls and loses then objects when dealer says it's 6k. Floor ruled that he only had to pay the smaller amount but said I'd have lost my whole stack if I had lost the pot. fwiw I had a good not great hand preflop and would have preferred that he did not call and tried to explain that to the floor to no avail.


agreed

Since this season EPT (and all other GPTL tournaments) are using this rule:

40. Accepted Action – If a player requests a count but receives incorrect information from the Dealer or another player at the table.
The amount of chips is smaller than the stated and accepted wager (i.e. Dealer/Player says 80,000 and the all in is 50,000) the calling player shall only be required to pay the 50,000 in physical chip value.
The amount of chips is larger than the stated and accepted wager (i.e. Dealer/Player says 100,000 and the all in is 150,000) the calling player shall only be required to pay the 100,000 as the agreed upon wager.
Players are encouraged to verify the amounts of all wagers with the dealers and are within their rights to ask for a Floor Person if they believe they are being given an incorrect amount.
Players who give false information to the dealer and other players about the amount of a bet may be subject to penalty.

in this situation i think that the ruling is correct. while some dealer mishaps are irreversible, this one is easily correctable. the actual bet should rule the day no matter what the dealer says. i don't care if you are blind, color blind, deaf, mute, or helen keller, you have to deal with the same ****ty dealer mistakes that everyone else does! i vote for robot dealers.

Perfect.

This happened to me last week during the Foxwoods Megastack Series. Player A had 37K and dealer announced allin for 27K multiple times. Player A didn't say anything bc he was shortstack w/ AA obv. I was player C and pushed all in with w/ a set after player B announced call and pushed out 27K on a Qc8c3x flop. I trusted the dealers count just as player B did. Stacks were being brought in for the main pot and the dealer realized his oiginal count was wrong. Floor was called over and player B argued and was awarded his 27K back saying he wouldn't have called 37K (after seeing that I was shoving obv). He folds KQ w/ a smirk on his face. I turn over my set and it comes cc to burn me w/ player A's AcAx. So player A tries angling by not saying anything when it's announced that his stack is shorter then it really is. Player B angles by arguing that he wouldn't have called 37K and I take a gross beat after getting angled by two players in one hand.

super excited to rock a great angle when i realise the dealer count is wrong :P


saying that, i think this ruling is 'fair' but i also thing the std 'original' ruling is also fair

One point that seems to be overlooked here is that it is every player's responsibility to make sure the game is run fairly - not just the dealer and the players involved.

If anyone observes a chip count to be misstated, it is their responsibility and obligation to speak up and correct the error.

blah the more i think about it i keep going back and forth.

i dunno if the responsibility to correct dealer mistakes should be on the bettor. they are doing nothing wrong by betting without declaring the amount. i think the majority of the time when a mistake like this happens, it's an innocent mistake, and the bettor didn't know the count was low.

if they did know, but didn't say anything, that would be an angle and angles are bad, but seems like you could angle just as easily under the EPT rule just different circumstances.

then again, it wouldn't be that hard for the bettor to pay attention to the dealer. i guess i don't mind the burden being on the bettor. i guess either way would be fine with me, as long as the floor doesn't waffle in different situations!

There is this rule I pushed for in the TDA Summit

21: Chip Stacks Kept Visible & Countable
Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks in multiples of 20 as a standard. Players must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times. Tournament directors will control the number & denomination of chips in play and may color up at their discretion. Discretionary color ups are to be announced.

I like to call it the Jason Mercier rule and I think allowing stacks not to be in 20's slows down the dealers, game, and hurts the structures. I have seen some tournaments that allow players to have 10 racks of chips in front of them which IMO is "absurd!"

Matt-what are your thoughts on the EPT rule and do you think it has any glaring shortcomings? Seems that the TDA rule allows some angling and big disadvantage to those w poor eyesight...

Don't know the EPT rule, i have not had a problem with the way this rule is currently written but I do see what you are talking about also.