No, using my logic we simply don't dismiss things out of hand just because they don't match our own viewpoint, nor assume that inside everyone is someone exactly like us, but they just haven't realized it or had the chance to express it yet.

Lots of people simply aren't like us to one degree or the next, on one way or the next, and they don't believe what we believe.

We just don't assume there is only one way to look at the world or that anybody really feels, and that it just so happens (what a coincidence!) to be ours rather than someone else's.

I think it shows how unnerving we find it to really look at our own sexual values when, faced with those of another culture, we change the subject. It's a major stretch to thing that bringing infanticide and clitorectomy into the discussion is on point.

But almost all the stereotypes came out of the past where who was running the show? Men and you're complaining now about the few scraps that are thrown to women.

i'm assuming the implication here is that cheating isn't a good reason and i have to say that i'm torn on the matter.

if a commitment is serious then people should make an effort to see each other through the tough times; however, it seems unfair to tell someone that they should not be bothered by their significant other being unfaithful. in theory it's nice to say that a woman should let her partner sleep w/other people as long as he/she can fulfill the other responsibilities within the relationship. the problem is that one of those responsibilities is doing his best to make sure his wife knows she is loved and if him cheating makes her feel like he doesn't love her then i'm not sure that is fair to ask her to stick around and subject herself to the emotional distress. someone said something about ending a good relationship over trivial things, but if one side doesn't see it as being trivial then the good thing may have ended already. calling cheating a trivial matter is unfair b/c you can only speak to what you are comfortable with. if a wife can separate her spouse having sex w/her from having sex w/someone else then good for her, but if not i don't think she is in the wrong for wanting to leave if he is unwilling or unable to accomodate her. overall, trying to depict monogamy, polygamy, or w/e else as being more natural/preferable for people in general seems like a pointless exercise to me as it's simply a matter of personal preference.

Your have not said, as I originally noted, why your theory isn't simply random. It looks to me to come down to an attempt at sophisticating the usual men bad/women good, men dumb/women smart, men animals/women fully thinking and deeper feeling human beings schtick, which I think incidentally is very harmful to families and our culture.

When women become part of a different species, we can talk about them transcending biology. Don't hold your breath.

I never used the world transcend. I specifically stated that women and men both have 2 conflicting natural drives to contend with. This is paradoxical but it is the state of things.

You keep putting your own spin on things and injecting assumptions.

Not exactly what I was saying, but I can see how it would read that way. You have to bear in mind the rest of the discussion though, where I've already laid this out clearly.

If you make a promise to forsake all others, then you are indeed cheating if you don't. How much it's wise to make of that is an individual choice, but breaking up a family is a high price to pay for the privilege of holding each other's gonads as inviolable personal property. I don't see divorcing as anywhere near the best possible option myself. Honestly I think we poison ourselves with some of these thoughts and then wonder why we're unhappy, when the answer is because ... we work so hard to poison ourselves with these thoughts.


All this is of course why you both be sure you know what you're getting into and share the same values. I would argue that since cheating is entirely within human nature, we kinda know what we're getting into anyway, but others do or at least would like to believe differently. May they always be, according to their lights, lucky.

At any rate, one's outlook toward this is strongly impacted by one's culture.

Where have I said that my (or the West's) view is the one true way to look at the world?

--You claimed that a big part of the reason chinese divorce rates are low is the malleable ideas they have about sex/marriage/infidelity.

--I said that I'd bet the state of women's rights proabably is a bigger factor.

--I posted a link to an article that's pretty much all about women's progress and chinese marriage/divorce today.

Will you read and comment on the article?

And I "strenuously object" (a la Demi Moore in few good men) to your accusation that I changed the subject. YOU were the one who brought up divorce rates in china. DIVORCE, as in between a man and a woman. so women's rights are perfectly on point. and like it or not, in china, female infanticide/abandonment is a women's rights issue. as for clitorectomies, you were taking issue with dismissing other worldviews. and for the most part, I agree with that. but i think we can make some judgements along the way, too. especially on big-ticket items (like infanticide and forced clitorectomies).

That's beside the point though. the issue is chinese divorce rates, and I'd really appreciate your feedback on the article.

No, you keep playing word games.

Splendour I could destroy this so bad it'd hurt.

Your "men ran the show, therefore it is all their fault" is stupid.

If you don't see why, please reply, saying so. Then I can tear it down. Otherwise, admit to being dishonest and playing word games, as Blarg had already pointed out.

Make your argument.

I don't see how Splendour is playing word games. She's trying to explain herself.


Splendour - wow, I'm surprised there is no divorce in the Philippines. I didn't know that. Do you think that your Filapina friend would be more inclined to look the other way if her husband messed around on her? I'm sure it's possible that in countries where divorce is frowned upon women would be more tolerant and put up with infidelity (same goes for men being tolerant of an unfaithful wife). That would make sense to me.

But the suggestion seems to be that Asian women look the other way not because divorce is shameful but because they are more philosophical and have stronger family obligations and better priorities than western women. They are able to put aside their jealousy for the sake of their family (or something like that).

Chymechowder,

Of course you never said that. You make a lot of sense.

Oh God, don't encourage him. Whatever he says is about 95% guaranteed to piss me off because it's going to be so blatantly ridiculous...

Seriously Splendour, why encourage this?


and stop playing them damn word games and being so dishonest already! damn girl. LOL (j/k of course)

You kinda missed it. Let me copy paste it for you.

Men are pigs, women are angels. (Who's automatically assumed guilty in a domestic dispute? How many men report being taken advantage of vs. women?)

Another way of saying this is:

Men earn more than women, therefore they are oppressing pigs. (Sounds a bit like a thread we had recently?)

Another way of saying this:

Men SHOULD provide for the woman, otherwise they're pigs. (Who pays for drinks/dates?)


Aren't these the stereotypes, created by women, and mostly believed by women? And nowadays men too, which has created a whole generation of cowardly men that put the woman's needs before their own and hence lose the woman's respect? Then there's no longer any sexual tension/polarity because the woman runs the show. Then we have cheating because the man feels like a victim in his own house and the woman is miserable because it turns out, she married a pussy.


Now if you could actually read that. Especially the part that says "created by women."


And since we're playing the "make your argument"

Splendour, make YOUR argument.

Moderators going to let this slide right?

Katy is going to encourage it right?


Katy since you're a Hobby defendant, by the virtue of her being a woman, please go back to the other thread where I said she was being condescending with "So enlighten me" and tell me that was meant in good spirit, where a day later she claims anything I say is ridiculous.


Or is she so inconsistent that one minute she insults me, and another she's an angel? And men are pigs? Or is she a royal double faced $^#&$ on consistent basis? You tell me... Present your argument.

I'm still waiting to hear an answer on whether or not i can put people on ignore. the post above me is the reason.

Alex,

You are sounding a little paranoid. I already explained what she meant by "so enlighten me." You're going to have to get over it.

Frankly, I've grown tired of your weird posts (which seem to border on misogyny). As an example, take a look at your last post (above the one to me). You were supposed to give Splendour some kind of argument and instead you copy/pasted a stupid post you had already posted. What is the point of that? I'd suggest you knock it off if you don't want to receive infraction points or be banned from the Lounge. Consider this your last warning from me.

I ask this in all seriousness: do you not know how to read?

Oh, Katy, let him rant. Nobody takes him seriously. Besides, every village needs one.

Well I guess everything is a matter of personal preference, when you get right down to it. I know women who will get royally pissed every time their husbands decide to go out to a bar with friends, or to guys' poker night without them. Is this really grounds for divorce, just because the wife would prefer he didn't do it? (Of course, marriages have been dissolved for this and far less... so I guess it is!)

Of course I'm not equating sexual infidelity with going out bowling with the guys or whatever. But the point is, there are many subtle and unspoken ways in which one spouse tries to control the other. Monogamy has it's benefits I'm sure, but at least in part it's just a way of exerting control over another adult's behavior. How much of the taboo against extramarital sex is based on the actual hurt suffered, and how much is about one partner exerting a form of power over the other? As in, "like it or not I'm the only sex you're ever gonna get."

It's a little early for a banhammer.

There's a lot of power in there. Too much. And it's very often abused. Lots of guys' social circles collapse when they get married and never recover, trickling to near nothing by middle age. Womens' don't.

One thng for sure is that you don't see Japanese and Vietnamese girls chowing down at McDonalds much.

Well I think the Catholic influence plays a part on their being no divorce plus Asians in general rarely divorce. I've only known one Asian-Asian who was divorced. She was a Japanese lady who married a Korean then later divorced him. I tutored her in English as a favor for another friend. The lady and I got a little chummy and she revealed to me that the divorce was frowned upon in Japan. I think she felt like a bit of a social pariah in Japan because of it. Other than that case I only knew 2 other Asians that were divorced. One was a crackpot Filipina (I won't go into the details but she started a feud in a Filipino social community she belonged to) who was divorced from her American husband the other was an American-Filipino kid who married a Canadian Filipino. I think the Canadian-Filipina was using him somehow to get to the States. Anyways they were really young and after about a year the marriage broke up.

Divorce hasn't really been around in the West that long so its not all that surprising the East is lagging. I do think its learned culturally to put the family first and to think of divorce as wrong. They value consensus and the group a lot more in the East than we do in the West where the emphasis is on individualism and freedom of individual expression. In Japan, particularly, its rare to see someone buck the group. Its just not their way. They don't buck the group and they don't buck their elders.

As for looking the other way there could be some variation by individual and country. But I do believe that many Asian women will not be looking the other way. Some of them will be having fights behind closed doors because they are upset about it but its just not their way to air dirty linen. In Japan they fear scenes (remember my chikan thread) and I've even known other Asians to be very cagey about revealing family skeletons because they don't want to suffer a loss of face. But this will vary by ethnic Asian group a lot. In Japan the women used to have to walk 2 steps behind the men.

One thing about the Philippines and their lack of divorce is they might have a higher bigamy rate. I've heard of more than one case of people having more than one spouse over there. Since its a Catholic country with no divorce that might have some impact on the rate. They may allow for annulments but the requirements for an annulment just about anywhere are a lot stricter than a for a divorce.

You've probably heard about some of the Latino countries having the equivalent of a "Sancho" in their culture, a guy the wife fools around with on the side. Meanwhile the guys fool around a lot on the side too.