hobby,
i think i watched a couple of them on youtube a year or two ago...but ive seen other interviews with a couple of those guys, and read a couple of their books...although not necessarily about religion...

That is not atheism in itself, though, and is neither necessary nor sufficient for it.

If you call yourself an atheist now, it sounds like you're glossing over changes you've made, or trying to use old labels you're used to using to describe something new.

there are evolutionary reasons why we are can be nice to each other...there are selfish and other reasons why we are mean to each other...i don't understand what you mean here...

it sounds like you are saying "there is no morality w/o god"...which is ugh...

Your choice and your business, and I'm sure no one is saying different.

It just gets confusing when you start ascribing good things to religious figures and principles, and then say you're an atheist.

Frankly it sounds like you're still working through this yourself, so I don't expect it to be too coherent right now.

focus people, focus.
not my intention to start an 'ask dom about religion' thread.

more to get to the idea of implicit lying rather than explicit lying.

Exactly. That's straight Christian language and thought.

some of those, it seems have no real benefit...would your wife get mad if she knew you were watching baseball?

Awww, Nut...it's fun to see Dommie squirm though...

Possibly...these thought are new to me, so i may say things wrongly or in a way that may make me seem something that I'm not...

Hmmm...I guess you could postulate that's what I'm saying, which is funny - because that has always been an adamant argument I have always made: "I don't need God in order to be moral."

LOL....so I don't know what the hell my point is now...

yeah, this.

what in the world makes you think i'm squirming?

What in the world makes you think I'm serious?

Sheesh.

I wouldn't do what I told Dave to do, but I think Dave is missing out on some opportunities and a few lies might at least allow him to meet a few more women. Then, one might find out that despite the lack of job or car, he does have something to offer. After all, the absence of the car and job are just temporary.

i dont really think anyone has put themselves into the other persons shoes...

how is the girl supposed to react when dave gets off the bus, or when im 3 inches shorter than i said?

we have been focusing on the benefit to ourselves, but these lies cause a negative on the other side (potentially)...if i get to a date and i end up with someone that is something different than i was expecting (because of lies) im upset and its almost always a deal breaker...

Almost Emersonian. However, I've found a few people who don't have a trace of "God" in them in any way.

I wonder about the car. Hasn't daveT been without a car for ... I dunno, years?

Dave can say his car broke down. You can just say we get shorter as we get older. (No, I wouldn't lie about the physical stuff.)

I've certainly heard of endless stories of guys meeting girls who are ... *ahem* ... more "robust" than they had said they were, or than their ten year old picture showed they were. Apparently there's enough lying going around that I would take it for granted.

I had my license suspended, and everything is paid off. I'll have a car soon. As for a job, now that's more permanent: self-employed 4 life.

im not saying that dave can't get away with his lie for one, or a few dates, but if things go well, its eventually gonna come up...then you end up either lying more, or coming clean...i suppose if she is attached enough to forgive your original lie then you have both gained, but not will not happen 100% of the time...

is it ok to lie in all cases where we can get away with it adn there is a benefit to ourselves?

i think most people people would have to add in more qualifying points in order to agree with that...

i think most people would agree there should be a clause about not harming others w/o their consent...i mean, most would agree that its not ok for me to lie about having an affair even though i can get away with it and i benefit from it...or cheat on my taxes even though i can get away with it and i benefit...

there is, perhaps, a difference between when a lie is moral and when a lie can be rationally justified...

exactly...this has happened to me a couple of times...its a deal breaker for a couple reasons...i don't like being lied to and misled, and im not really into big girls...

but just because something occurs frequently, does that mean we should, or can, do it ourselves?

Thirddan and I are of the same mind. It reminds me of disaster #5, where the girl stated on her profile that she couldn't correct her age to 29 from 26. When I met her, she had crows feet that are impossible on a 29 yo. Disaster #3 claimed to have an average body, and that may be tricky but she did have a kangaroo pouch. I can say sure give a chance but I have to wonder. As for why we are what we are, I don't believe it is god, I find genetic behavioralism highly convincing.

So...a lie is moral when it is intended not to hurt anybody and a lie is rationally justified when what exactly?

In the sake of not committing any "lies of omission", you do know that I'm asking you to clarify so that I can then proceed to rip apart your stance?

Depends on how you define/how much you value your ethics. Different people would have different answers appropriate to them.

Hobby Horse, are you refusing to take a stance just so you can argue?

should have been a question mark in that sentence hobby...my bad...

what about the income tax example?...its rational to cheat/lie on your taxes: i benefit, don't hurt anyone really, very unlikely to be caught...but most still dont...

im asking if there can be lies that are rational to make, but not moral to make...if they can be separated at all...

im probably going to ask a lot of questions in this thread...but i don't really know if they have answers...