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Old 07-12-2012, 01:49 AM   #376
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Re: WW Court Version 1 - The Pretrial

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Originally Posted by Felix the Cat View Post
Proposed Ruling

Findings
  • magic_gazz directly violated "you are expected to participate if you sign up for the game" by failing to post on one game day.
  • magic_gazz directly violated "you are expected to behave civilly" during post-game discussion. The severity of this incident was minor.
  • magic_gazz violated the intent of "note that all rules are subject to modification by game mods, and game mods may enforce rules at their discretion" by failing to disclose to the game mod that he was not, in fact, a new player, upon direct questioning by the game mod. However, there was no direct violation of this rule. There is a mitigating factor: "it may be considered bad etiquette by some to play on a gimmick and pretend to be a new player when you are not" may create confusion as to the allowable scope of false claims associated with gimmick accounts.
  • magic_gazz has, prior to this incident, accrued one infraction, resulting in a two-week suspension from werewolf. The suspension was followed.

Ruling
  • magic_gazz is given a further one month suspension from werewolf.
  • Furthermore, magic_gazz is warned that any further infractions entered into the Official Werewolf Fouls and Rules Violations Thread within a one year period will result in an automatic permanent ban from POG werewolf.
  • magic_gazz remains welcome to participate in all other POG games.

Rules Changes and Clarifications
  • It should be clarified that game mods must be notified of any gimmicks and the identity of said gimmicks' other/main accounts upon request.
  • Furthermore, to avoid any situations of uneven information contrary to the spirit of werewolf, if one player in a game knows the identity of a gimmick in that game for a fact (for example, from modding a game for that gimmick in the past), the rules should state that player must reveal his/her knowledge of the gimmick's identity to the game mod. It is recommended for the game mod to post this information for all players to see.
  • (debatable) It should be clarified that the purpose of allowing gimmicks is to allow players to play single games without revealing their identities, and that no player is entitled to keep the gimmick's identity secret after that single game is over. In other words, players should not expect to be able to use a single gimmick over the span of multiple games.
  • It should be clarified that, if a player will be permanently using a different account for werewolf, and does not wish to be associated with the previous account, the player must notify [insert a POG mod here]. Permanently changing accounts will not expunge prior infractions; should further infractions occur, expect the link with the prior account to be revealed.
I'm willing to support pretty much all of this

I'm also willing to support a suspension length that is somewhat longer then this

Perma-ban doesn't seem quite justified to me. Or, perhaps it would be better to say that a perma-ban would be justified except that given the fact that we have only recently been really formally (and visibly) enforcing some of the rules via suspensions., the jump from 2 weeks to complete forum perma-ban for the kinds of problems magic has been creating seems too harsh to me, but at the same time I do think it should be made clear that it needs to stop and that there is no further rope. To a certain extent that discontinuity is what disinclines me from the "body of work" argument.

Although that said, that's just my opinion and the main reason I suggested the WW Court on this is because while I don't think any single magic_gazz issue really clearly warrants a forum perma-ban, the issues are the kind where it makes sense to me that the community should have some say in what it thinks is right. If the community thinks collectively that a perma ban is right, then I don't really actively oppose it.

But my personal belief from my interactions with magic is that he isn't ill-meaning at all, he took his suspension without complaint, responded well to what I told him about what the problem was, and every indication I've seen is that with the proper amount of public shaming and beatings, he can survive as a non-problem causing werewolf player in POG. I understand not everyone is as optimistic as I am. I've also enjoyed playing with him in several games where there were not issues, I know he has it in him

edit: I didn't mean to post this after the lock but woo posting in closed threads
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:40 AM   #377
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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damn, I missed the magic court
Its ok, so did I. Apparently courts nowdays start without the accused.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:42 AM   #378
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

I was not going to say anything about this whole mess, but im still pretty upset about it.

Can someone please tell me why one little girl with a bee in her bonnet can bend people around her finger? Why does she have the power to demand mods do IP searches on people?
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #379
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Sup magic.
Not much, just having a massive tilt after comming back from a punishment to find that people are demanding more punishment.

Apparently justice has not been served.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #380
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

Quote:
Originally Posted by magic_gazz View Post
I was not going to say anything about this whole mess, but im still pretty upset about it.

Can someone please tell me why one little girl with a bee in her bonnet can bend people around her finger? Why does she have the power to demand mods do IP searches on people?
ftr, it starts without every mod knowing apparently
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:43 AM   #381
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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what the hell, POG exploded overnight

I see civ discussion. I think I'm gonna read that and nothing else
Hehe, seems like you might have to read some of it, moderator.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:45 AM   #382
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Its ok, so did I. Apparently courts nowdays start without the accused.
hope for the lynching also be done without the accused
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:45 AM   #383
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by magic_gazz View Post
Its ok, so did I. Apparently courts nowdays start without the accused.
FTR, I think you should get permad or year-banned from WW but you should be allowed to speak first. :P
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:46 AM   #384
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by TimeLady View Post
ftr, it starts without every mod knowing apparently
Well at least im in good company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrighty Roo View Post
Hehe, seems like you might have to read some of it, moderator.
This is true, you will have at least 2 PM's about it. Fun times for you im sure.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:46 AM   #385
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by Alrighty Roo View Post
Hehe, seems like you might have to read some of it, moderator.
that's what I'm not looking forward to
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:46 AM   #386
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by magic_gazz View Post
Well at least im in good company.



This is true, you will have at least 2 PM's about it. Fun times for you im sure.
I actually only have 2 PMs about it, and no post reports, so maybe people weren't as mad as it seems
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:48 AM   #387
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by Treep View Post
hope for the lynching also be done without the accused
Too late, im here now and I always fight my lynch. Well almost always

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
FTR, I think you should get permad or year-banned from WW but you should be allowed to speak first. :P
Lol, so I can have a say but it makes no difference, sounds reasonable.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:48 AM   #388
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by Supine View Post
FTR, I think you should get permad or year-banned from WW but you should be allowed to speak first. :P
lol, sham trial!

I disagree, he was punished for previous offenses and in terms of new stuff that's come to light he didn't actually do *that* much wrong (hate the game not the playa, I think it will be good for POG if some rules are changed/'clarified'). I think a short ww ban and entry into the grievances thread would be sufficient because that's probably what would've happened if numbers was an outed gimmick.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:52 AM   #389
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Originally Posted by Alrighty Roo View Post
lol, sham trial!

I disagree, he was punished for previous offenses and in terms of new stuff that's come to light he didn't actually do *that* much wrong (hate the game not the playa, I think it will be good for POG if some rules are changed/'clarified'). I think a short ww ban and entry into the grievances thread would be sufficient because that's probably what would've happened if numbers was an outed gimmick.
I think this is something that most people are missing. Punishment was given and served.

Im pretty sure having real life stuff that makes you miss a day of a game should not be a banable offence.

Is it any surprise I made a gimmick? Look at the negativity associated with my name. I wanted a fresh start and unfortunatly due to things not under my control that didnt get to happen.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:53 AM   #390
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

want fresh start?

do exact same thing people hate you for in the first place and deny its you!
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:53 AM   #391
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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wouldnt be the first time. at least im not ruining multiple games by being a quitting *****
Well I actually only quit 1 game, so get your facts straight.

You hide behind your screen and call me names all you like, you would never dare in real life.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:54 AM   #392
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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want fresh start?

do exact same thing people hate you for in the first place!
Except I didnt.

You obviously have some sort of problem that you seem to want to ignore the facts.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #393
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alrighty Roo View Post
lol, sham trial!

I disagree, he was punished for previous offenses and in terms of new stuff that's come to light he didn't actually do *that* much wrong (hate the game not the playa, I think it will be good for POG if some rules are changed/'clarified'). I think a short ww ban and entry into the grievances thread would be sufficient because that's probably what would've happened if numbers was an outed gimmick.
I'm sorry but no. Everytime something happens, he is discussed and its very clear from his defence that he just doesn't care about

1) the rules
2) his teammates.

And he has been given several chances. He can't use the "people make mistakes" defence anymore. He just isn't fit for playing ww; it's irresponsible as a mod to allow him to play. You are taking a huge risk of of ruining several peoples hard work in the game.

In a vacuum, I don't think

* conceding as a wolf without talking to your teammates (not asking for sub)
* conceding as a wolf, spewing several villagers without talking to your teammates (not asking for sub)
* spewing yourself villager by making a thread about an issue in an ongoing game
* vanishing from a f7/f5 without asking for sub (I haven't really looked into how gay the gimmicky thing was)

and so on (there are more) is ban-worthy, but the body of work and his attitude - essentially, go **** yourself you are not a mod wolves were losing anyways thingie - makes it enough.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:55 AM   #394
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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right, so I've never used this expression before, but this thread is apparently AIDS right now, so I'm just gonna leave again
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:57 AM   #395
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Well I actually only quit 1 game, so get your facts straight.

You hide behind your screen and call me names all you like, you would never dare in real life.
Also, in every post-game discussion, he lies and doesn't acknowledge his wrongdoings. You have quit more than one game.
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:57 AM   #396
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Except I didnt.

You obviously have some sort of problem that you seem to want to ignore the facts.
please tell me more about how you dont give up as a wolf whenever the **** you feel like, ignore the ita rules, and then when called out on your behavior take it out on everyone else
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:01 AM   #397
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Re: WW Court Version 1 - The Deliberations

Ok.

As far as I can see, the fact he played on a gimmick is not at all punishable and shouldn't be in the discussion, unless the Game Mod specifically said that gimmicks were prohibited, in which case that is separate but it doesn't look like that's the case so it's a non point.

I also think that if we start punishing people for not posting for a day then we start punishing a lot of people, so that's not something I'm concerned with.

What I'm concerned with is the quitting/sabotaging. That was and has been dealt with in the fouls thread. The thread is a new thing, we cannot expect it to work instantly.

I would be open to increasing his current suspension because of the (apparently) similar behavior of the numbers gimmick, with a clause that if in the next period of six months after his suspension is lifted he acts in a purposefully negative way to his team again then he gets a longer two/three month ban, and then a perma ban after that if he still doesn't change his ways.

I don't think this thread was warranted, and I think that some people calling for a lynch mob on his is not deserved.

If any poster believes that someone is multiaccounting under any sort of guise, you can always PM gtpitch for an IP Check. It's better to be safe than sorry. This is not an excuse to PM gtpitch for an IP check on people who refuse to out their gimmick accounts in the game, as long as they out themselves to the game mod then it's currently not against the rules.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:02 AM   #398
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

magic_gazz

I do not agree with a lot of people wanting you dead and banned

But your ww record is less than exemplary

So as a matter of fact, I would prefer not to see you on a player list in any game I play or mod for quite some time until you have shown an improvement in your style of play

Which I will leave to the mods to decide.
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:05 AM   #399
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

magic

at least apologize for lying to the mods about being a n00b

have some dignity

as far as lying in the game, i think it's the lowest of the lows, and i've petitioned to make it illegal for years; but i was told i was being unreasonable.

so you shouldn't be punished for lying in the game. if what you did u would have been punished again as magic, you should. and the rule should be changed to what i have asked to to for years

then we can have rainbows and unicorns
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Old 07-12-2012, 09:06 AM   #400
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Re: Pog Pub - July 2012 (LC) - Everyone welcome! NSFW

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Are you WW guys gonna start arguing all over again. Jesus Christ, can't you make another thread for that, a J'accuse Magic thread, and leave the Pub in peace?
And, if I'm not mistaken, this was a primary reason for the push for a WW "*****" thread.

People like to *****, and it's going to happen somewhere. Might as well be a containment thread and not the PUB.
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