soah, just respond by voting tom, but not quoting or saying anything else if you agree with what I am saying in my reply. If you disagree then revote perdition.

I believe that lynching tom will blow open the game a lot more than lynching perdition. The case for lynching tom is twofold:

1. Mucks has had him as a villager and has simply been sponging him for days now. If we lynch tom then mucks has to admit he is wrong AND come up with an actual defense in order to stay alive. I have shown several posts from redd on d1 that look really bad in retrospect and I believe that mucks would either fold under pressure or show us that we need to lynch perdition and bhuber to win the game (we'd still have our mislynch and surely me/you/wn would eat 2 NKs and have one of us in the f3). I feel more confident in us getting this right than getting tom lynched tomorrow after he makes a nk tonight even if we are right on perdi.

2. If we are wrong on perdition then tom redoubles his efforts from Sunday where he spent precious posts talking about how perdi was WRECKING US. I think that this basically ALWAYS loses us the game.

In no way do I think perdition is more likely a wolf than tom, but obviously me/you/wn will be voting as a block today. I'm willing to go in whatever direction bhuber votes as he clearly is the one that is making the decision here. I can't see mucks/perdi moving so no one else really has a say.

Is the wolf team actually YOU and Soah and not Soah and CDL or something? I would swear there are four wolves with the way you're riding Soah's wolf dick in this game. Are you a wolf or are you the most gullible and misled villager I Bink I have ever played with? Like my mind is repeatedly BLOWN when I see this kind of post from you asserting that something Soah did is villagery WHEN I NEVER AGREE WITH YOU?! WTF!

Tom: again, calling me either a wolf or terrible is all you've done all game, and I don't give a **** what you think

you are a wolf and I am lynching you, you remember that right?

well, it would either be mucks/ttt if you get lynched today. given that we have a mislynch in that scenario it doesnt really matter which one it is.

I'm possibly just being lazy, but I am discounting the idea that either you or soah is ever a wolf itg. Soah rocking the boat is villagery in the exact same way that what I did to save him on d2 was villagery. I don't know what it will take for bhuber to realize it, but that is what has to happen for us to lynch a wolf today.

I don't think perdition is the right lynch despite being a likely wolf.

But you're 100% wrong.

So there's two options of what's happening here, as I see it:

1. Soah/CDL are wolves, and you are INCREDIBLY misled.

2. Bhuber/Perdition are wolves, and I am INCREDIBLY misled.

I believe that Soah is far and away the person that firs best with Hero as a W/W team. Soah has been one of my wolf suspects since D1 and Soah is in all of my wolf team solves.

I'll be voting for Soah today and if I'm right about him being a wolf I want you to realize that what you've done in this game is incredibly counter-productive and foolish. Okay? Okay. Thanks.

lol tom

ignoring leveling exercises which I think are pretty incredibly unlikely, soah and CDL can't be w/w in this game because soah wouldn't have had CDL on ignore.

WAT?

I mean, soah was probably the single most important driver of the hero wagon. Why on earth would he bus there? I know this is slightly easier to see since I know I am villa, but it makes absolutely no sense.

again, CDL does not bus, and CDL absolutely does not open a wolf game with a case like this on his wolf bro

soah and CDL cannot be w/w

soah does not throw heat at a noob wolf teammate early on d1 when no one else is talking about him in a 13-er.

More blatant dishonesty.

ihcjay had me and CDL as LOCK CLEAR when the wolves decided to nightkill him.

Other people can be wrong, or wolves.

Why are so many villagers hardclearing me in this game? The question works just as well that way.

Other blatant dishonesty: citing some of tappo's reads while ignoring others. tappo spent the whole entire day shouting about how ReddBoiler was a wolf. Whereas with his read on me he explicitly said that he was tired and might change his mind once he has more time to read my posts carefully. And of course, citing tappo's reads kind of ignores the fact that a lot has happened since then. This is not the first time that Tom has cited tappo's reads to support his arguments and I'm pretty sure that in the other instance(s) he was also ignoring the ones that didn't serve his agenda. And lest we all forget, while we're on the subject of tappo, tappo had all but announced that he'd be going hard on Hero Value once his d1 noob pass expired, and Tom responded to that by wagoning the holy ****ing **** out of tappo to get him lynched before that could happen.

So Tom kind of has a credibility problem.

Again willfully misrepresenting my posting. I have Perdition as a lock wolf. I want to lynch my highest probability wolf first. Which is exactly what I just said in the post you're responding to. I didn't actually say anything at all about you.

I think any wolf lynch today cracks the game open and any mislynch outside of me/you/wn is likely to lose it. Given the way the lines have been drawn, it hardly matters which wolf gets lynched. If you/me/wn lead any wolf lynch then we are all 7000% lock clear and if we lead a mislynch then we're ****ed.

WN, I think you have extreme naïveté of wolf actions or planning. Maybe that's why you fall for it when I'm a wolf: because I think through the "little things" and exploit the holes in your misconceptions? For example: saying "CDL never buses" is silly because tangs the first thing a clever wolf team would want to exploit. (I AM assuming Soah is clever, he seems to be.) How is asking "are you a wolf for being interested in the game" putting heat on him? That's the exact kind of comment that I think is W/W distancing. It's not a serious attack attempt, it's a little quip-and-run so that when either of them flips wolf later, the other can say "see? Never W/W here." And apparently you're falling for it completely... how many WW games have you played? How do you not see this? It's so obvious to me... it's so obvious to me that I feel like you must be openly trolling me right now. I have a really hard time believing you're this oblivious.

So there's only two options that I can see: one of us is 100% wrong. I think it's you, so, I'm gonna keep pushing what I think is correct.

obviously if you are a wolf I expect you to push what works for you, and if you are a villager I expect you to stick with what you think is correct. I would never ask anyone to do otherwise

where I have a problem with you is your constant bull**** insulting me and trying to prevent me to do the same. I've told you very explicitly what you have to do to get me to think you are a villager. And yet, even though I think you are a wolf, I engage with your arguments, try to read them fairly, do research, and respond, which is more than you can say

basically, I've told you what you can do if you think that I can't be a villager. Lynch me. Me and you today, I am happy to be your counterwagon

otherwise as far as I care you can go pound sand

soah, I do agree that the game is very likely won or lost today, but in no way do I have perdition as a more likely wolf than tom.

tom, please explain to me how a wolf team would exploit my strategy to never bus? The points I would like you to specifically address are:

1. Which person in this game, or all of POG for that matter, would I allow to overrule me and control my vote?

2. Why would a team of me and soah (two guys with not just good, but elite track records as wolves) decide that this was the game I needed to exploit my meta instead of win normally?

3. Why would a team on me and wn engage in #2 either?

When answering both of the above questions please keep in mind that WN and I were wolves together in a draft game (and I think soah may have been one of the drafters) a while back and we basically bullrushed the village and got mislynches then we killed the seer WHO HAD PEEKED ME WOLF and both of us still fought all day, tooth and nail, to keep me alive by insisting I wasn't peeked. Here is that game: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59...hread-1193841/

caveat: I actually didn't think you were peeked in that game trollololol

In my defense, I have been almost exclusively phone posting during this game. Fetching quotes, editing, writing; it's all a bitch for me to do.

I'm sorry if I've offended you personally, it's just really frustrating for me to feel like we might lose this game if we're both villagers because the two of us can't see eye to eye. Perhaps I should say I think you're BEING an idiot rather than you ARE an idiot? Obviously I don't think you, as a person, are stupid. But I do think you, as a player, might be gullible or overly head-headed at times.

I may not be the best at thoroughly explaining my wolf leans sometimes, but I feel I'm pretty good at wolf hunting, especially as the number of players diminishes.

I am quite confident that the wolf team is CDL and Soah and I'm sorry you don't agree with me.

Your "we have to thunderdome" attitude is extremely anti-village if we are both villagers because it just hands a win to the wolves.

I've said repeatedly now that I think you're more likely to be a villager here despite all rhyme or reason: from where I sit the stances you've taken are impossibly bad. And it's extremely demotivating for you to treat me like I'm just trolling you when I've been putting sincere effort into solving this game, whether you acknowledge it or not. Maybe you'd say the same thing to me.

But who knows, maybe the joke's on me and you're right and I mis-cleared someone and I'm dead wrong somehow. Maybe the wolf team IS exactly Bhuber-Perdition and I'm completely wrong. (I just really doubt it.)


To CDL: there's no way I can tell you what you are thinking. But obviously "I never do that as a wolf" is not a real defense and is something wolves say a lot.

tom, just explain to me why I would decide to break 5 YEARS OF ****ING META to win a vanilla 13er when I randed wolf with a guy who is considered the best wolf on 2p2 by many people? like, in what world would this be a real outcome? if its not a real outcome then how the **** is soah a wolf here?

bhuber, I hope you are reading and considering these deflections.

Votes from post 2480 to post 2869
Night in 5:00:56
---

Votes	Lynch	Voters
3	soah	mucksandgravs (42), Top Tier Tom (75), Perdition (34)
2	Top Tier Tom	CalledDownLight (29), well named (56)
1	Perdition	soah (77)
1	bhuber2010	bhuber2010 (59)

Re: perdition

Here is #283

How is this post convoluted? perdition seems to be making things up, it's probably one of the clearer and easier to read tom posts in this game

I'd like to think that these two quotes that Hero quoted by XX and Redd spew Bhuber very likely villa? Your thoughts, WN?


CDL: again, you're asking me a question I can't answer. But the obvious answer would be: to exploit your meta.

I think bhuber is more likely to be a villager than a wolf, although I was just researching a thing he said about it not being hero's first game. Tappo asked about that and I'm looking for a response

That said, saying "hmm" to it is a lot different than voting bhuber. comparison to his votes on latvian willi (or on CDL) is worth doing. I did not end up thinking I could draw a ton of conclusions on people from hero spew though, it just seems like there's enough ambiguity in his treatment, and most of the posts I thought were clear spew were unfortunately on dead villagers like hate doc and latvian willi

I'm pretty comfortable treating bhuber as a villa still.

Why is this the obvious answer when people have tried to convince me to do this for years and when I wolf I make sure my whole team knows that I will not tolerate bussing unnecessarily and still won't engage or like it even in the event that it happens? You are avoid the ****ing question because you know its not true and there is no explanation you can find to actually justify your read on soah and I as wolves.

And WN, what of this pretty basic point that Bhuber and I kept bringing up yesterday?

Basically: that if either of Bhuber or Perdition is a villager, Hero *HAD TO* be bused yesterday, meaning it becomes wayyyyy more likely that the wolves bused Hero to save CDL simply because CDL is the stronger player or to protect that EOD2 wagon information. Do you still disagree with that fairly basic idea? I remember you saying the wolves couldn't lynch villager CDL without outing themselves, but I just don't think that's the case considering I would have been most at blame for that.

And do you just outright disagree with Bhuber's Hero spew analysis that cleared me "a million times over" or whatever he said? You think there's absolutely no merit to that? Because I am a villager and your continual refusal to at least entertain the idea that I am is maddening.