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POG Politics Thread Version 3 POG Politics Thread Version 3

09-21-2020 , 09:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687
yeah to be clear, chess as it currently exists is definitely sexist

I just think it doesn't have to be

some sports I think will always be inherently sexist
Do you think the ratings difference between elite men and elite women is wholly due to sexism?
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 09:05 PM
I could go off on a rant about responsibilities for household maintenance and childrearing and the respect for recreational time for women vs recreational time for men and what the implications of that are for pursuits like chess.

But I'll resist. I'll just leave it that women are de facto excluded from excellence in pursuits for a whole lot of reasons that have nothing to do with innate physical limitations, lack of interest, or hostility from the putrid denizens of their mother's basements. And everything to do with the way our society functions.
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687
yeah to be clear, chess as it currently exists is definitely sexist

I just think it doesn't have to be

some sports I think will always be inherently sexist
for sure

in the early history of chess, it was played by women and was not considered predominantly a men's game like it is today
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09-21-2020 , 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore
Do you think the ratings difference between elite men and elite women is wholly due to sexism?
i’m not sure

probably
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 09:16 PM
not sexism in the sense you might mean it, though, monte
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montecore
Do you think the ratings difference between elite men and elite women is wholly due to sexism?
I think sexism is a big factor but at the highest levels of many things, men are more represented than women due to a wider bell curve distribution

I don't know if this is true or not but I've read that there is more variation in males, and thus more geniuses and more catastrophic failures, whereas women are more clustered toward the middle

maybe that y chromosome is a crazy roulette wheel

I have no idea what the science is on this idea but it seems to fit my experience. I've met way more crazy-smart and crazy-stupid men than women
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687
i’m not sure

probably
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman10687
not sexism in the sense you might mean it, though, monte
More as it relates to VR's recent post? (VR - nice post, btw)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
I think sexism is a big factor but at the highest levels of many things, men are more represented than women due to a wider bell curve distribution

I don't know if this is true or not but I've read that there is more variation in males, and thus more geniuses and more catastrophic failures, whereas women are more clustered toward the middle

maybe that y chromosome is a crazy roulette wheel
Yeah this is kind of what I was getting at, but I wasn't sure if it was any further explored within the chess community writ large. (And I'm not qualified to assess the veracity of that research even had I investigated it at all rigorously, which I have not.)
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09-21-2020 , 09:27 PM
Here's an article about the idea, which has been around for a long time:

https://qz.com/441905/men-are-both-d...er-than-women/
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09-21-2020 , 09:48 PM
Thanks, sun.
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09-21-2020 , 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
every community is different



the goldeneye people include a literal nazi



the super metroid community is like a family and includes many trans women
Mario maker community seems pretty inclusive as well
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09-21-2020 , 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VoraciousReader
I could go off on a rant about responsibilities for household maintenance and childrearing and the respect for recreational time for women vs recreational time for men and what the implications of that are for pursuits like chess.

But I'll resist. I'll just leave it that women are de facto excluded from excellence in pursuits for a whole lot of reasons that have nothing to do with innate physical limitations, lack of interest, or hostility from the putrid denizens of their mother's basements. And everything to do with the way our society functions.
Why resist though...
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09-21-2020 , 10:25 PM
Women's happiness has tanked a lot the last thirty years.
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09-21-2020 , 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pwnsall
Women's happiness has tanked a lot the last thirty years.

I feel like everyone’s happiness has tanked a lot the last thirty years but maybe I’m just a gloomy person
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-21-2020 , 10:27 PM
in a youtube I watched yesterday, a wife made a corny joke and her husband said, "that's a dad joke. Wait a second. Why aren't there mom jokes?"

The wife responded, "There are, you just don't notice because you're not listening"
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09-21-2020 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
in a youtube I watched yesterday, a wife made a corny joke and her husband said, "that's a dad joke. Wait a second. Why aren't there mom jokes?"

The wife responded, "There are, you just don't notice because you're not listening"

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09-22-2020 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by filthyvermin
i guess no one wants to show me any leftist opinions or quotes from RBG? i mean ones that are more left than simply not being a sexist or racist
i dont consider her radical at all

the only issue i have with her as a judge is that she believed her job was to sometimes legislate, and that the constitution is a living document at all times; but that's just political opinions. i think her decisions definitely lean left but i do not consider her a radical leftist if that is what you are asking. she was very consistent
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09-22-2020 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo!!
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/94-1941.ZO.html

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-536.ZO.html

You might not consider “equality” type decisions to be “leftist,” but “leftist” often means activism, which judges are not supposed to do. Her job was to decide cases in front of her. It’s not like she could propose legislation.

I also note that RBG had a ton of notable dissents in bad “conservative” decisions (Shelby county, Hobby Lobby).
yes she always wanted her dissent to be heard even if it didn't matter, which is extremely admirable as well
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09-22-2020 , 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurvan
If you're not aware, talking about sports in the context of trans people is pretty common transphobic troll behavior, intended to act as a wedge. So maybe be a little more thoughtful about what bigoted tropes you throw in the thread

Not implying anything about anyone, just pointing out a fact you may not be aware kf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uglydelicious
Thank you for saying this, words I wanted to say but could not articulate..

Fully comfortable directing this exactly at IANAW/Mets/Tokyo.. Maybe y’all weren’t aware, but now you are so there isn’t really any defense next time you put forth these ideas and Bird, or anyone, calls you bigots. My opinion, of course.
i dont really understand

should all golf courses remove the ladies tees? is a lady wrong for using them?

i dont get why we cannot have this discussion, and it does not make me a bigot to be willing to discuss it
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09-22-2020 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by metsandfinsfan
i dont really understand

should all golf courses remove the ladies tees? is a lady wrong for using them?

i dont get why we cannot have this discussion, and it does not make me a bigot to be willing to discuss it

Reread the posts, nobody called you a bigot.
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09-22-2020 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossnerd
First of all, it is always amusing to me that men who routinely dismiss female sports are suddenly concerned with competitive equity within those sports. I don’t believe the men who raise these issues are actually concerned with competitive equity; I believe they are concerned with excluding trans people from cis spaces. It started with the myth of predatory men invading women’s bathrooms, and has continued to other realms of social interactions such as the myth that those persons born into male bodies are automatically more athletic than women and retain a competitive advantage even after transition.

The fact remains that NOT all men possess athletic abilities, nor are they all taller or stronger or innately more athletic as a rule. Human beings across the sexes come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes, and ability.

Furthermore, gender is a core aspect of our identities as people, and to assume that trans people are in some way gaming the system is a deeply offensive and dangerous rhetoric to engage in. In the entire 40 year history of “sex verification” procedures in international sport competitions, no instances of such “fraud” have been revealed. Not *once*.

Instead, rather than identifying men who are trying to fraudulently compete as women, “sex verification” tests have been misused to humiliate and unfairly exclude women with intersex conditions. You cannot choose to exclude those women in discussions like this. Those women matter and their identities are just as authentic as trans and cis women.

Moreover, It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women’s team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes *is not supported by evidence*.

So when it comes to trans women competing in women’s sports, yes, I’m more than “okay” with it. I support them fully and without reservation. I take serious offense to men like you and Mets perpetuating harmful stereotypes without knowledge of medical science. You are harming the trans community and I will not sit by and say nothing. Do your ****ing research or shut the **** up and sit the **** down. PERIODT.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/50097423

you have all the majority of female athletes in this event upset that a trans woman broke the world record and that would refuse to even compete against her if she were in the olympics

https://www.yahoo.com/now/bloody-jok...093710779.html

but i believe gregory was stripped of medals
yes she was

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...-we-draw-line/

im not trying to be ignorant or bigoted

my cousin tried to commit suicide because he was not comfortable being what society told him he was, and now he identifies as a male. there is nothing wrong with that at all, i do not fully understand it but I completely accept it as his right

but that still doesnt mean i think trans female athletes should be able to compete against cisgender athletes in women's sports

if you want to make the olympic sports all unisex, then men and transgender will probably be the only people who compete in many of them.

i am willing to listen to arguments and how it is fair but im not going to converse if its just going to be omg mets is too dumnb and bigoted for this to be explained to so im not going to waste my time
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-22-2020 , 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VoraciousReader
I could go off on a rant about responsibilities for household maintenance and childrearing and the respect for recreational time for women vs recreational time for men and what the implications of that are for pursuits like chess.

But I'll resist. I'll just leave it that women are de facto excluded from excellence in pursuits for a whole lot of reasons that have nothing to do with innate physical limitations, lack of interest, or hostility from the putrid denizens of their mother's basements. And everything to do with the way our society functions.
this is of course 100% true, and even though women are much more included in these things than they were even 30 years ago, it's nowhere near equitable yet because of the patriarchal society we have been accustomed to for so long. i dont think anyone would argue against your point
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09-22-2020 , 01:19 PM
I did try to put an early stop to any discussion of sports and gender issues...but no to avail.
I like women's table tennis better than men's because women don't have any sort of slower reaction time than men-- but because they have less power they can afford to play closer to the table. This is how someone like Mima Ito at 4'11'' can be ranked #2 and play the game she does.
Ultimately it's faster and more enjoyable for the fans.
POG Politics Thread Version 3 Quote
09-22-2020 , 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokyo!!
The chromosomes was just an inartful way to discuss how to have fair and competitive metes and bounds of athletic competitions. It seems reasonable to me that completely open competitions are "fair" but not "competitive," whereas gendered competitions are "competitive" but perhaps not "fair." I really haven't read any good answers on how to work on the nuances of this to balance the two.
this is basically where i am at too
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09-22-2020 , 01:35 PM
Watching Disclosure, pretty decent so far. Would have never considered buffalo bill a trans person in any capacity. Also feel like the trans woman from L word going on T and suddenly becoming violent could as easily be seen as bigotry towards men, I mean it's basically like the black face men raping white women stuff they showed earlier in the doc.

Obviously not really the point of the doc. I'm walking on trains and being laughed at is quite the miserable existence.
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