POG Politics Thread Version 3 - Page 34 - Puzzles and Other Games Forum

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POG Politics Thread Version 3

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09-20-2020 , 12:14 PM

#826

Uglydelicious

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnsall

Asking people to define terms is mostly unnecessary because words are ideas and defining them by other language is a matter of convenience that can only be done by parsing those words into ideas or subsets of words as well,and would be infinitely reductive.

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:14 PM

#827

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

seems like you are just bogging the question down in technical jargon as a way to deflect from addressing the very basic and fundamental premises with which you disagree

What basic and fundamental premises do I disgree with? Because if they exist we can talk about them.

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:15 PM

#828

Sun Tzu

laconic

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 84,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnsall

Real I'd say is explainable by physical phenomena to some degree, neurons firing and pathways or atoms, things like that.

Sometimes you have a concept like love that straddles lines, but love the magicalish concept is definitely not real, but love as pathways is and we can define it as such and the word still has meaning to describe events either way. But the concept was around before the real understanding.

I don't believe in qualia. Like the color red is some unexplainable phenomenona to a blind person.

is center of gravity real?

it's not necessarily made of anything and its position can change based on how a system moves or is defined, so it's not a "thing" in any ordinary sense

but it does make the math easy

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09-20-2020 , 12:16 PM

#829

Uglydelicious

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LB, do you think people of all identities are valid and deserve the same basic human rights as anyone of the “normal” or “mainstream” identities? If so, we agree, what else do you want to talk about?

Last edited by Uglydelicious; 09-20-2020 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Punctuation error

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09-20-2020 , 12:17 PM

#830

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnsall

You don't know what love is until you know the meaning of the blues....until you've had a love you had to lose.

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:17 PM

#831

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

What basic and fundamental premises do I disgree with? Because if they exist we can talk about them.

Right here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

I tried to make this point and was called out for expressing transphobic attitudes, but you seem to be doing a better job with it. But yeah, saying the world is abound with myraid genders but that it's important to be recognized as 1 of 2 has some logical contradictions.

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09-20-2020 , 12:18 PM

#832

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uglydelicious

LB, do you think people of all identities are valid and deserve the same basic human rights as anyone of the “normal” or “mainstream” identities. If so, we agree, what else do you want to talk about?

Of course I do. But I want to talk about the concept of gender.

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09-20-2020 , 12:18 PM

#833

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Right here:

That's what we've been talking about the whole time.

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09-20-2020 , 12:18 PM

#834

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Uglydelicious

i would go further and say “trans women are women and to suggest otherwise is anti-trans”

^if dustin agrees with that then nothing much left to discuss

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09-20-2020 , 12:20 PM

#835

Uglydelicious

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Of course I do. But I want to talk about the concept of gender.

Ok, but why does it matter if gender is real or discrete or a continuum if we all admit people who identify with gender differently are all equal?

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:20 PM

#836

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

That's what we've been talking about the whole time.

yeah? you asked “which basic premise i disagree with” and that’s the one

seems like basically everyone here understands it without having to talk about all the bullshit you keep bringing up about semantics over continuum and stuff

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09-20-2020 , 12:20 PM

#837

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

i would go further and say “trans women are women and to suggest otherwise is anti-trans”

^if dustin agrees with that then nothing much left to discuss

Can't agree. Women don't seem to exist at all.

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:21 PM

#838

Sun Tzu

laconic

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 84,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

So "men" and "women" exist de facto and not in reality?

those categories don't exist in physics

I don't think they exist in biology either

I'm not an expert on the philosophy of language and how words are used but I think it's fair to say words are useful for communication even though their meanings are usually somewhat vague and blurry

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09-20-2020 , 12:21 PM

#839

VoraciousReader

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I don't understand why you are so fixated on discrete and/or continuum. It is completely possible for gender to be on a continuum, but for us to still use the words "man" and "woman" because although they may not perfectly express the fluidity of the concept, our language is still evolving.

It is better to be able to talk about these things than not to be able to. For better or for worse, "man" and "woman" still are meaningful concepts for most people who speak English.

You seem to think it is some sort of giant "gotcha" but honestly, it seems like very fuzzy and uncritical thinking on your part, which is not what I have come to expect from you.

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:21 PM

#840

Birdman10687

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Can't agree. Women don't seem to exist at all.

lol ok dude whatever

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:22 PM

#841

Sun Tzu

laconic

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 84,770

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Can't agree. Women don't seem to exist at all.

is the word woman ever useful in conversation?

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:23 PM

#842

Birdman10687

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Dustin what don’t you get about gender being a social construct?

social construct does not mean that it’s not real

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09-20-2020 , 12:24 PM

#843

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by VoraciousReader

If you think that leaving the concept of gender being completely up in the air as to what it actually is wouldn't be something that I would deem important, then you don't really know me. Definitions and terms are actually important. I'm not a socially conscious person fighting for people who can afford to not care about certain things. I care about logic, rationality and truth. The question of whether gender is a continuum or discrete is fundamental.

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09-20-2020 , 12:25 PM

#844

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/willful_ignorance

“ A decision in bad faith to avoid becoming informed about something so as to avoid having to make undesirable decisions that such information might prompt.”

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09-20-2020 , 12:27 PM

#845

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

What am I being willfully ignorant about and why?

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09-20-2020 , 12:28 PM

#846

Luckbox Inc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Birdman10687

Dustin what don’t you get about gender being a social construct?

social construct does not mean that it’s not real

Yeah sure....I can appreciate that.
Let me ask you a question: is gender different in the US than it is in Japan or elsewhere?

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09-20-2020 , 12:30 PM

#847

Uglydelicious

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

To what end do you care about logic, rationality, and truth? Are you willing to invalidate or insult someone for the sake of caring about those things? Basically do you care more for your own quest for logic, rationality, and truth than you do about understanding/caring for people and their lived experiences?

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09-20-2020 , 12:31 PM

#848

Uglydelicious

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That’s not an accusation, I think it’s fundamental I understand this in order to discuss gender under your terms.

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09-20-2020 , 12:31 PM

#849

pwnsall

CFBBPC

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 66,194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uglydelicious

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.

If only!

Quote

09-20-2020 , 12:32 PM

#850

Birdman10687

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 39,990

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckbox Inc

Yeah sure....I can appreciate that.
Let me ask you a question: is gender different in the US than it is in Japan or elsewhere?

it’s a social construct everywhere

gender is how you internally feel

you are probably confusing gender norms with gender

gender norms obviously vary from society to society

gender does not

Quote

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