Trump supporters fighting for the same thing they were fighting for when they wore hoods and burned crosses. They're racists, being publicly racist, and would rather burn down a country than see brown people treated as humans

I don't disagree but I do believe this misses the forest for the trees.

The question of which is more important in the west in general, the US in particular - race struggle or class struggle - is ongoing, I've seen strong arguments from both sides, and am not well equipped to debate it in depth. I'll just say that I'm more convinced by the racism first, not least because more poor white people support Trump & fascists than rich/middle class not-white ones

I also saw someone who called Whiteness an Uberclass, that supercedes economic class, and thought that was a really interesting idea. He said that being white effectively puts you in a different group category than non-white people, and trying to boil it down to just economics without taking that in to account was oversimplifying the situation

I agree

I don't see them as separate struggles. I think we are made to see them as separate because that paradigm helps the status quo.

The CIA and the US government has actually worked pretty hard to make us think this distinction is real and relevant.

Can trumpism/tea party/whatever be a fascist movement to forestall proletarian revolution, if at the same time Obama was just a republican in a different coloured suit? It doesn't make sense to me. Where exactly is the great fear of proletarian revolution coming from? America hasn't really seemed at risk of Marxism over the last twenty years to me.

I'm on board with trumpism being a reactionary response to Obama and racial fear, but trying to port that into Marxist class terms doesn't work for me.

i think it's important to correctly interpret what the racists are doing, saying, and wanting.

im pretty sure they'd happily burn down a foreign country rather than see brown people treated equally, or as humans. but if you gave them a choice between burning down their home country and treating brown people as humans.... i'm gonna guess that most of them would choose to treat brown people as humans, and not burn down the usa

if i were given the choice between burning down usa and treating brown people as humans... i'd actually have to think a bit lol... but i'd probably choose the latter

Like, the big electoral divides in the UK are generational and educational: old people and non university educated people against people with degrees (who tend younger because of the rise of higher ed).

I can't interpret January 6, and all the nonsense around the election, not to mention the not at all hidden efforts to disenfranchise voters Republicans are undertaking, as anything other than burning down the USA. They attempted to take over government and murder opposition leaders to invalidate an election, after their attempts to manipulate voting were unsuccessful. What else would you call it?

There's OTHER racists that aren't doing those things, but this group absolutely IS

Keep in mind, these right wing extremist, white supremacist, pro-Trump militia whatevers think that they can burn down the country and win in the process. They don't foresee a personal cost to this, because they consider themselves the rightful ruling class

Same here. Does the UK have the same wealth gap between generations as we see over here (worse in the US than Canada, but still bad here)?

can't they both be movements to forestall proletarian revolution?

obama is one way to placate, distract the masses, and trump is just another way.

Yup. It's largely real estate based

It doesn't work. The GOP base just hates the liberals. They don't think Biden is Che Guevara.

They could. But I really don't see much threat of the proletarian revolution. Why did the republicans go super extreme (tea party, trumpism) when they did? Not because of Jill stein.

you call it burning down the usa, but they call it preserving the usa. i'm pretty sure their goal isn't to burn down the country.

just to be clear though, im with you and against them lol. but i don't think it's helpful to put words into their mouths, so to speak

also i think it's important to remember that "invalidating the election" is misleading. saying that implies we have a functioning democracy and fair elections, and we have a govt of the people, and for the people, which we don't.

I'm not particularly against the use of fascism for trump (not sure it's particularly helpful, but whatever) but I think the Marxist Leninist model of fascism doesn't really work.

The tea party is likely a semi-organic movement movement that was coöpted by the national GOP, and Trump was positioned to ride in the coattails. The super extreme part is divide and conquer.

Oh, I see your point. Yeah, they don't think they're burning down the country, for sure. I wasn't intending to say they were, only that their actions will have that affect, and a slightly hyperbolic way of saying they'll do anything at all to get their way

I am not sure I would say the "fear of proletarian revolution" is quite that concrete. I think it is more like...the superprofits from Imperialism are being squeezed more and more. Normally a portion of those super profits are being used to bribe the labor aristocracy (LA) and petty boog (PB) into supporting Imperialism and the capitalist mode of production. With the falling rate of profit and the fact that Imperialism is running out of markets to exploit while also being pushed back at the edges (see the failed coup in VZ or the successful coup that was immediately reversed in Bolivia, for example), less and less profits are able to go around which means the LA and PB are getting smaller and smaller bribes. Those groups then become increasingly agitated and push the capitalist state to enforce stronger and more fascistic oppression of the proletariat (most of the US is not proletariat, but there is some. most is in the global south) as a means of extracting more wealth and as a means of solidifying their class position.

I think that is what we are seeing with "Trumpism".

I think when you see the Black community (and Native Americans) as a colonized people's that happens to be within the border of the US this makes more sense as it relates to imperialism. I have heard some people say that "fascism" is just "imperialism turned inward" and this is perhaps an understandable way to see it, the other way is just seeing that the Black community have always been the target of imperialism and that simply being located within the borders of the US doesn't change that.

I think there is some of that going on with Trumpism, but I would say that is not the fundamental crux of it. I think it is just continued pressure on the state to demand more of a piece of the Imperialist pie. Obama promised social democracy (which is giving a piece of the pie in the form of universal healthcare and other types of welfare) and completely failed to deliver. I think THAT is what people are responding to.

Nobody is burning down anything. Maybe some courthouses or jails in the future-- not sure what else. January 6th was a made for TV movie.

the republicans hated trump. they were united against him in the primary. but trump excited the country, and dems and lib media helped him win the primary.

i think it was more a case of republicans got stuck with trump than they wanted him.

also republicans were really desperate. their base is a minority and was shrinking pretty fast. trump injected a swath of people who would historically be democrats

probably any other republican would have lost to hilary clinton, who was maybe the least popular candidate the dems had ever put up

The proletarian push back is going to come from abroad (or from colonized communities within the US)--THAT is what the bourgeoisie is afraid of. To be able to prevent that, though, they need support from the LA and PB in the US which they are getting less and less thanks to the failure of Imperialism to provide the LA and PB with the quality of life that have been "promises" as part of their alliance with the bourgeoisie.

Isn't the dija hitting record highs still? Corporate profits are not down and the rich are still getting richer, and the poor are getting poorer.

Correct--social democracy is a bulwark against communism. Fascism is another attempt to protect capitalism from communism.