wut?

They're not poor, and they sure as hell aren't middle class.

Oh good God.

I'm starting to lean closer and closer to just not voting.

i think they're pretty rich.

How many kids does the guy making 250K a year have?

I don't consider that truly rich ... but it's definitely the rarified high air of middle class.

They absolutely are middle class - upper middle class, but middle class for sure. Depending on where they live, they might not even be in the upper middle class.

Someone in NYC, Washington DC/Arlington, Southern CA who is making $250k is definitely middle class.

Calling them rich is just another way for the Dems to try and create an artificial dividing line that shouldn't be there - OMGZ 250k a year is the wealthies, hate them!!

Last I looked at the Brookings Institute numbers, the Obama tax plan didn't really raise taxes on someone making 250k a year anyway, the break-even point was somewhat higher than that, and the largest tax increases (the result of rolling back Bush's tax cuts) were much higher, like 1m+.

I think the article is slightly misleading in taking the Biden quote and juxtaposing it with that particular number, when he didn't a mention a number and the number they chose doesn't quite reflect the intent of the plan. The Obama campaign has used 250k as a number before in stump speeches, but in the context of "If you make around this much or less we want to reduce your taxes", not "if you make this much you are filthy rich and we want to tax the **** out of you".

Although the "patriotic" line is still stupid. ldo.

My fundamental problem with Democratic tax plans is I don't believe people making higher sums of money should be penalized for being more successful than others.

My fundamental problem with Republicans is that they've gotten away from what their roots really are (lower taxes, smaller Government) ... taxes may be lower with them, but the Government sure as hell isn't getting any smaller. And no one can convince me the budget deficits we're running are good for the country.

One needs to keep in mind the purpose of income tax: Wealth redistribution.

Remembering that, you know why people that make more pay more.

Besides, $1k to somebody making $250k is significantly less than that same $1k to somebody making $40K.

Yeah, well then I'm fundamentally opposed to income tax.

Just like the original Constitution.

And I'm a guy who could use a little wealth distribution, FWIW. It's not like I'm a rich guy in the equation. But I know if I was, I'd hate the system.

Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. Workingmen of all countries, unite!

I'm opposed to income tax as practiced now.

It should be a flat tax, and much lower. Probably 3 levels, based on income: none, a little, and some. Like 10% and 15% or something. Much higher property taxes and sales taxes. And all taxes should be targetted... ie, gas excise tax goes to pay for roads, 2% of sales tax pays for military, etc etc etc. And stop bragging about tax surplusses (Canada's Federal gov'ts is 5.6 billion dollars this year) as if overtaxing is something to be proud of.

Final thing that needs to stop: extra tax refunds. That's flat out bribery, with my money. *******s.

btw, you guys have no idea how good you have it re: taxes. I hate listening to Americans complain about their taxes. Drives me bonkers.

The only way Communism could work is in a Star Trek-like society where everyone has everyone's best interests (for the most part) in mind. Humankind will never reach that point, we're way too selfish a species (again, in general).

That said, I can't fathom that human beings have discovered/invented all kinds of incredible things and have learned about and come to understand so many incredibly complex theories, and yet we can't figure out a way to help the poor/disadvantaged while at the same time not penalizing the well-to-do disproportinately.

Two other thoughts:

1. There are some people who are beyond help. Sounds heartless, but we all know at least somebody who's like that. You can't save everyone or make everyone a productive part of society.

2. For those other unfortunate souls who are capable, but are in a bad situation (growing up poor, bad parents, lack of opportunities, etc.), education is the greatest tool. There has to be a better way to use education to help these people than what we do now.

I've complained for a few years to a few people in the public school system that too much of our education these days focuses on academics and not enough on life skills (managing money, balancing a checkbook, buying a car/home, etc.) and not enough on what I'd call trade skills for people much more likely to earn a living using their hands to build stuff than their brains to do whatever.

I don't complain about my taxes. I complain about the system.

I think there is at least some argument that can be made for regressive taxation based on diminishing marginal utility of money. The argument probably works for individuals but has complications in terms of impact on business. Those complications may be less though at this point given the way lots of businesses find ways to avoid showing profits by re-investment. Obviously I am drastically oversimplifying things here though, and some would draw a moral argument against wealth redistribution for any purpose, whereas I believe I am ok with some level of it towards the purpose of the common good.

Elaborating further, in high school everything the school did, with every single student, was geared toward preparing them for college. Well, what about the 25 percent of students for whom college not only isn't in the cards, but probably wouldn't be their best move anyway? They're the ones who will be building our houses, fixing our cars or something along those lines. Why don't we prepare them for those careers instead?

Well really the people who we call middle class are extraordinarily wealthy by almost any standard. Someone who makes 250k a year is wealthy indeed, no matter where they live.

The problem is that the cost of certain things that are important to the "middle-class" lifestyle, primarily energy and healthcare, is going up, and people don't want to hear that they will have to adjust to them. It's much easier to believe that they have been shorted by the Bush economy, or that the rich aren't paying their fair share, or that it's government's responsibility to make sure they can afford to buy an obscene amount of gas no matter what happens.

Cliff notes: The middle class are the biggest special interest in America.

Zurvan - I am not complaining about taxes - I am probably one of the few people you'll meet that's happy to pay his taxes. i know we have it good in the US as far as the amount of tax we pay.

What I am complaining about is the arbitrary numbers that get thrown around during elections (and it happens EVERY damned time) as to who is rich and who isn't. The number that many, many people paint as 'rich' is often not rich and is usually upper middle class. But, because someone throws out a number that gets touted as being 'rich' is creates a class distinction which really should not be there.

Because of this crap, many Americans confuse 'rich' with wealthy, imo. They think that people who make a certain income don't work hard for their money, don't have to worry about paying bills, whatever. It creates a strange dividing line in many people's heads that if you make more than $xxx income, you are a greedy *******, you vote for Republicans 100%, and got there on the backs of the 'real middle class'.

People's values don't change because they went from making $30k a year to $200k or $500k a year, but a whole lot of voters are trained to think that they do.

Meh, I think pretty much everyone likes to play the blame game for why things are the way they are, instead of accepting that sometimes, things just are.

There's no question, though, that the middle class voters are the ones most catered to. The poor (for the most part) are voting Democratic, the rich (for the most part) Republican.

In Canada, we have two forms of post secondary education. College is more "practical", whereas University is what American's traditionally call College, where you go for your bachelor's degree. Make sense?

All my high school teachers treated college as a second choice - something you did if you weren't smart enough to go to University, and didn't mind failing at life. Learning a trade? Forget it. Might as well shoot yourself now.

The old system of vocational high schools - that taught trades in high school - and academic ones that taught academic-y things - was a huge win for everyone concerned.

Eh, I found another article about the Biden quote. He did specifically mention 250k.

What a moron.

100% agree and 100% hate it.

The naked evil of Joe Biden is a terrible and beautiful thing to behold.

That was the attitude at my high school, and it pissed me off.

Blaming prejudice on politicians is ridiculous.

People that live on $30k a year see people making $250k complain about not having enough money when they have 2 cars, a huge house, big screen tv, etc etc etc, and want to push them in to traffic. Whether politicians say it or not.

Trust me on this.