Some people believe in individual liberty. Freedom to choose who you copulate with and who you bake cakes for, and not having government deciding which is more important than which. More or less liberalism.

Obviously as a matter of law you could sue as it was equally obvious lenc wasn't referring to the current law/way of things.

Things like this are still happening to people.

Lol, ok, if that's your standard you want to use that's your prerogative.

If LenC has ever been refused service for something he had no control over, I will beg his pardon. Otherwise, he's just another person lacking in imagination. Not impressed.

Good day I say to you!

Hurumph!!!!

Don't want to play the dumb personal anecdote game to build the score up for my arguments.

Instead of seeing it as being anti-whatever, you are ignoring that the cake makers can be whatever as well. In your world, a muslim baker would have to make cakes saying "Jesus Christ is the GOAT" whereas they should obviously have the choice to decline.

Wrong analogy.

It would be refusing to sell a Jesus GOAT cake that he normally makes for satirical reasons, because the people buying it wanted to serve it at a church social.

It wasn't meant as an analogy to the original story but I can see how my use of cake might have been confusing. Either way tough to get anywhere as refusing there would be absolutely fine as well in my book.

People can get discriminated but in almost all cases in nowadays western countries, people will get their cake and the market will regulate itself by penalizing anyone selling their services to a narrower client base. Government forcing you to do work you don't want to do seems like something on the way to slavery and every case of discrimination should take a backseat to it. You are taking something bad and making it far worse.

There is a problem in who gets to decide what the list of swastikas are. The whole problem with minorities in democratic countries is that they can get voted out easily. Your system of letting the lawmakers decide what the swastikas are will not protect the minorities as the lawmakers get voted in by way of popular vote.

It's the one thing I have recently changed my mind about, the American first amendment seems pretty elite while the hate speech laws in some European countries are pretty lol. Not like we get taken away on the regular but more like in theory.

Hey, looks like the politics thread is back!

This thread needs more fish pictures.

Meh. Seems like fish pictures belong in the Pub. Its odd to ban outsiders from posting here about politics but regulars can post fish pictures. There's no rules!! Or are there? But.. meh. I don't care.

Bring on the fish pictures

And the difference between this and making a non black wedding cake is?

Nobody is forcing the cake baker to be a cake baker. That is what he chose to do. If he no longer wants to be a cake baker, he has his full faculties to no longer do so.

What he doesn't have a right to do is pick and choose his clientele as a person who offers goods and services on the basis of protected status. Nobody is forcing him to bake a cake, he decided to do that willingly. The only thing that's being "forced" on him is to offer his services equally.

lol at people saying this dude would be “forced to make a cake” if society didn’t allow him to operate a discriminatory business.

No one is forcing him to do anything. He can sit at home and bake or not bake cakes for whomever he wants. But if he chooses to start a business and organize himself as a legal entity like an LLC, sole proprietorship, or whatever and be afforded all the rights and protections an organization like that is due, and if he wants to avail himself of public services that society provides like the fire department, water, utilities, etc then yes society is going to have a say in the manner in which he chooses to run his business. And choosing to discriminate against some portion of society by hiding your bigotry behind “religion” (honestly someone doing this should be offensive to anyone who claims to be religious) should not be tolerated.

And that’s not even a crazy communist argument I am making btw. That is just a standard liberal interpretation of a free market society.

The first amendment is trash. It is an idealist notion that is enforced when protecting white supremacist/imperialist/bourgeois thought and then selectively forgotten when it comes to censoring any expression that is deemed too revolutionary or dangerous to the status quo.

This is a dumb argument. You could say this about anything. Right now we empower individuals or small groups of people to make all kinds of far reaching decisions that have a massive impact on how society operates.

Unless you are making an argument for removing the existence of any type of decision making authority whatsoever and returning to some type of primitive state of nature with a complete absence of government then deciding what the list of swastikas are is not a “problem”. But I don’t think you are arguing for that so your post is pretty intellectually lazy.

That is correct

Also vr

Very thought out response and I not one said I fully agreed with the court decision I said I understood it

As a jew I'd have a difficult time writing something like

Only those who follow Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior will have Salvation

On a cake. Can I refuse? It's a tough question
And it doesn't make me a bigot

I understand the dangerous precedent the ruling can set. My parents were denied hotel rooms in AC when casinos first opened there for being jewish. So 8 get why the court explicitly said this ruling was about how the baker was treated not whether he could refuse service

It's a very complicated issue
I'm still not sure how I feel about

No

He sold cakes to gay people

Wtf is a gay wedding cake? Does it have some special day ingredients?



How hard was it to type it out?

False equivalency much?

Also appeal to emotion.

Let's all settle this over some swastika cakes.

As an aside, I went to a lesbian jewish wedding a few years ago and the rabbi talked about how some Torah scholars believe that King David, the first king of the Jews, was a gay lover of Jonathan, son of Saul I researched more on my own and definitely see how things can be interpreted that way

And I wish the religious right did. I am aware of the passages in the bible that make them think gay is a sin, but I hope they also look at evidence such as above and realize that it is nto a sin in my opinion

Bingo, bango, bongo.

I 100% don't buy the argument that this is about anything other than discrimination against these individuals on the basis of sexual orientation -- because, plainly, it is. Attempts to assert otherwise are pure drivel designed to avoid having to argue the point. That they may have failed to discriminate against other similar individuals in the past is akin to asserting a defense against murder on the basis that there are some other people the guy didn't kill.

lenC, while I respect the attempt at the theory that "the market will regulate", there are two issues: 1) pretty much the entirety of human history dictates that those discriminated against get the short end of the stick when this theory is put into practice, and 2) surely we agree that there are a number of cases where "the market" is sufficiently small that it won't effectively self-correct. If, for instance, I'm the only gas station within 30 miles (yes, this is a real thing in America) and I refuse to sell gas to the gay farmer because reasons, that's a significant burden, and asserting that "well, someone that will sell gas to the gay farmer will just come plop another gas station across the street" is rather farcical.