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07-28-2009 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokiri
Anyway, i thought that people organising weddings all acted like bastards all the time anyway. Is being treated like a serf not industry standard?
A lot of people don't know how to treat wedding photographers. It's a very stressful day and people take out their stress. It's unfortunate and it's a reason many photographers hate doing weddings. OTOH, people get married all the time, so it's a lot easier to break into photography doing that than, say, corporate head shots.

And +1 to what soah said. There are plenty of photographers forums out there. Find one that specializes in wedding photogs and you should be able to find a standard contract pretty quickly.

EDIT: See this thread: http://photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00TyIx

Last edited by gusmahler; 07-28-2009 at 10:09 AM.
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07-28-2009 , 12:09 PM
OR: Depending on the language of the contract, *if* he doesn't pay you, then *maybe* you have rights to the images. PROBABLY not, though, so I would just take this as a lesson and get yourself better prepared for the future.

If you are going to be a pro it would pay imo to get yourself a standard (FAIR!!) contract that you use for your gigs. Even if you have to pay for a lawyer to draft one for you it will be worth it in the long run to avoid these situations. Then insist on using it and AVOID gigs where someone wants you to sign something else unless you have time to look it over first (and you are confident that you know what you are oooking for).

As for the money -- yeah don't give anything until you get paid.
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07-28-2009 , 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinG
don't do what mcavoy said
This is probably good advice. Chalk it up to a learning lesson but make sure it doesn't turn out to be a more expensive learning lesson than it needs to be, make sure you get paid.
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07-28-2009 , 12:48 PM
OR: i would give him watermarked digital copies of the images until final payment is received.

if for some reason he wants to get out of paying you the rest (if he says he doesn't like them or w/e) then fine, but at least you know he can't use them.

Quote:
OR: Depending on the language of the contract, *if* he doesn't pay you, then *maybe* you have rights to the images. PROBABLY not, though, so I would just take this as a lesson and get yourself better prepared for the future.
why would the contract still be binding if he doesn't fulfill his side? if he doesn't pay for the images, how can he still own rights to them?
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07-28-2009 , 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alice16
why would the contract still be binding if he doesn't fulfill his side? if he doesn't pay for the images, how can he still own rights to them?
The short answer is because if the photos were works for hire, then OR never had any rights to them in the first place.
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07-28-2009 , 01:15 PM
^^^^----- see also this link, OR:

http://66.221.205.76/resources.html?...=What+You+Sell
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07-28-2009 , 01:15 PM
Ya....usually my partner who has a lot more experience in the business, has a lawyer, and knows all this stuff deals with the terms of the contract and the clients....

this gig was all me, and it was sooo last minute....

The problem was that he called us ON THURSDAY to come shoot THURSDAY night....
So by the time I saw the contract, I had already done 7 hrs of work for the guy for free.....and he was really intimidating and I just wanted the money and to please him so I signed my life away.....

Next time I know to ensure that all aspects of the contract are worked out and agreed upon before the first picture is taken....

All good things to learn......

I cashed his deposit cheque and am waiting for it to clear before i go drop off the images.

The GOOD thing is that the guy is out of the country for the next 3 weeks, so he left me his wifes phone number. Meaning that she will pay me and I will drop them off to her.....and since they are all raw images, she wont even get to view them without converting them all, which I doubt she knows how to do....

So at least I am confident that the money/image transaction will go smoothly. She doesn't intimidate me...the father does... so ya.
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07-28-2009 , 01:18 PM
Well, I have learned NEVER EVER EVER to give up rights to my images....

And if anything seems sketchy before hand, just say no, and let some other jo blow photographer to it for jack ****....

I have gained enough confidence to know that I am good, and if these ppl want everything for nothing, then it doesn't need to be me that delivers that.

I can hold out for people willing to pay me for what I am worth.

My boyfriends parents saw some of the images and the mom was almost in tears.....so at least I know that I am at least as good as some of the others out there charging an arm and a leg......

I just need to learn more about the business side of things before I can actually start doing this seriously.
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07-28-2009 , 01:23 PM
You should also concidering branching out into science (biology) photography. You'd probably need some sick equipment though.
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07-28-2009 , 01:26 PM
But that crap is boring

Our lab has some pretty fancy equipment to label cells with florescent dyes and take pics of individual cells stained with different colors...I should post some of those...they are pretty cool.
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07-28-2009 , 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeRake



The GOOD thing is that the guy is out of the country for the next 3 weeks, so he left me his wifes phone number. Meaning that she will pay me and I will drop them off to her.....and since they are all raw images, she wont even get to view them without converting them all, which I doubt she knows how to do....

So at least I am confident that the money/image transaction will go smoothly. She doesn't intimidate me...the father does... so ya.
If his wife is also his daughter, then you might want to move house and change name/mobile#/social security.
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07-28-2009 , 01:46 PM
how cool does my post number look

OR: stabbaments ftw
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07-28-2009 , 01:59 PM
No no....I dealt with the father, for his daughters wedding photos.

The married couple has nothing to do with the arragements....

So I have to drop the photos off with the father's wife....so the mother of the bride....

LOL
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07-28-2009 , 02:35 PM
I am a baddass
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07-28-2009 , 03:17 PM
OrangeRake,

you might want to check out this site & its forums, specifically this one:

link: dpreview.com - pro digital talk forum

lots of talk about pro wedding photog'ing in there.

I haven't browsed it in a while, but doing a "work for hire" shoot isn't an uncommon way of going about it - some photogs have both a "flat rate I shoot 'em then they're yr problem" and a traditional "full package / portfolio" set of options.

I *do* recall that one prevailing view was...lots of the photogs don't even try to get work at the $500-for-the-whole-wedding level, b/c they consider it to be something of the Wal-Mart photog level of shooting. To be clear, it's not about snobbery of the amount of $$$ that someone's willing to pay - it's about the high likelihood of running into clients who are like, "I got this family portrait package for like 12 bucks and I want the equivalent for my wedding". they begrudge the cost of a photographer when "uncle albert has a camera and could do it for free", they're demanding, and they're unhappy no matter what you produce.

anyway - it sounds like you made the best of a bad situation, so far. i'd bet every wedding photog at the other forum has at least one war story like that. you might try popping yr questions over there if the situation is ongoing. you'll get the usual mix of internet curmudgeons & helpful ppl

Last edited by Pyromaniac; 07-28-2009 at 03:25 PM. Reason: same place gusmahler linked. diff forum tho.
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07-28-2009 , 03:42 PM
Ya, I am afraid to post in a photography forum, cuz they will throw eggs at me when I tell them how stupid I was
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07-28-2009 , 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeRake
Ya, I am afraid to post in a photography forum, cuz they will throw eggs at me when I tell them how stupid I was
Dpreview is a pretty decent forum. Not much flaming and you get a lot of good advice. I haven't been to the specific subforum that pyro linked to, but I think they'll welcome you warmly. You can get advice specific to your situation and I'm sure someone will link you to a contract you can use in the future.
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07-28-2009 , 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeRake
Ya, I am afraid to post in a photography forum, cuz they will throw eggs at me when I tell them how stupid I was
]

Personally I think your "partner" threw you to the wolves. He has the experience, he has the attorney, he negotiated the price for the work, he should have been there at the time that you were signing the paperwork. He should have some kind of standard contract.
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07-28-2009 , 04:29 PM
VR:

Yes, he did essentially throw me to the wolves....but reasons that I understand why are:

1) He phoned the man for me to help me negotiate the price and the deal, and we thought we'd get the contract signed on Thursday night when the two of us where there. He e-mailed me the contract before he left to meet me, but it never came through cuz he was in a rush and mis-spelled my name. I was suppose to print it and bring it with me, but i never got the email and couldnt reach him cuz he was on the subway.

2) He came with me for free on Thursday, and was at work on Friday when I went to the guy's house.....

3) He said he would have come help Sat, but he had family commitments and couldn't get a babysitter for his kids....

4) We were texting back and fourth all day, so he was supporting me through it all, and he went to talk to his lawyer about it all for me after I signed the contract.

All in all, I shouldn't have signed the thing. I read it and wanted to ask him if I could go call my partner, and i paused for a long time trying to decide what to do. In the end, I decided that I wanted the money, I had already worked for 6 hrs of it and didn't want to not sign and walk away with nothing.
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07-28-2009 , 04:30 PM
I think the main problem was that everything was last minute, nothing was negotiated properly before hand, and this guy took advantage of the fact that i was inexperienced......

It won't happen again, I have the contract now, and I know the types of things to include next time, and I am never ever ever going to do this again
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07-28-2009 , 04:59 PM
I hope you concidered giving your partner like 10% or something btw
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07-28-2009 , 05:10 PM
after skimming through, with an increasingly throbbing headache, recent activity on a UK poker forum I used to try and prop up, i realised that i might have come to take the overall lack of stupidity here for granted. with that in mind, id like to take a brief moment to thank you all for not being ******ed. (those of you, that is, who feel that the above should apply to you...)
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07-28-2009 , 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clowntable
I hope you concidered giving your partner like 10% or something btw
lol

well, we need to work out a business plan.

I essentially second shot for him last weekend for McDonalds, beers and batteries.

So he shot for me this time for essentially a ride to and from the event.....
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07-28-2009 , 05:25 PM
epi -

you're welcome

sincerely

Hitch
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07-29-2009 , 12:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gusmahler
Everytime I run a sheep here, I run into the 500 PM limit. Why can't 2p2 have a 2000 PM limit?
Can't believe I almost forgot to use this opportunity to shamelessly link to the sheep game I'm currently running.
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