Our mods have real life Stuff happening, and haven't started this thread, so I will.

This can be the starting point of the discussion, and hopefully will end with a proposed CoC for POG that the mods can implement. Hell, maybe 2+2 will take it up for the whole site (and they all laughed and laughed).

For additional context, read the post-game of the Pandemic Mish-mash game.

Proposed starting point:

- No slurs of any form (racist, homophobic, sexist, ableist, really any ist)

Werewolf specific
- Talk about the arguments, not the person (that argument is bad, not you're stupid)
- When a slur is used in a game, report the post, PM the game mod, and tell the person what they just did
- Game mod should close the thread ASAP, decide on how to resolve the situation (modkill, substitution, any team compensation to fix balance) and reopen as quickly as possible
- If you fear the person may be a bad actor, see if a Green can get a temp ban to prevent the thread being spoiled

thanks zurvan! that sounds pretty great to me

Seems like a pretty great start. Re-mod Zurvan!

Excellent start.

G'luck y'all <3

Ageist? Also, I think who decides what constitutes a slur is just as important as what.

Most of these are fine, although the "attack the argument, not the person" heuristic was tried in the Politics thread and failed miserably because the person deciding had a different view of what what meant than the normal posters.

A slur is something that attacks something people are (old, gay, Black, etc) vs what they say, do or choose. Or that puts down a person using a term that describes what a person is as being lesser (eg, equating the R word, originally a medical description of intellectual disabilities, with stupid).

So I actually started a rough outline of a CoC and the gist of it is that we talk about the generalities we want to avoid (personal insults, etc). We further emphasize no racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia, ableism, etc. In most situations we are still counting on game mods and forum mods to adjudicate and use their judgement (whether a warning, a kind PM, a modkill, or a ban is necessary).

But then I further outlined specific phrases and slurs that would require a modkill (no questions asked) of the offending party and a 3-day-ban. As long as that person apologized and admitted wrongdoing with the hope to avoid the same mistake in the future, they were wlecome back. Anyone who wants to run a game has to be willing to enforce said policy.

It might make sense to have another concept called being "removed from the game".

So if I use an offending slur, the mod can immediately post "Birdman has been removed from the game, they may no longer post"

Then the mod can take their time on whether they want to sub the player, modkill their role, transfer their role, whatever.

I know what the definition of a slur is; my point is that not everyone is going to agree on whether or not a specific term actually is a slur. And that the population of people that know what all of these terms mean (I'd bet the number of people that knew what ableism was before this is lower than you'd think), and know what the intelligentsia now consider verboten is lower than you'd think.

My point is that someone needs to be the final word on that.

I like this.

I think the definition of slur is actually really clear, easy to apply, and easy to point to when someone does it unintentionally.

I'm aware what you think, and we're probably possibly generally aligned on what those are; my point is we are not the world, and some people will likely need to be, to borrow an MU term, "coached".

a 3 day ban isn't that big of a deal if someone unintentionally or unknowingly uses a slur. i'd be happy to take a 3 day ban in exchange for learning i was using hurtful language.

I think making games pleasant/inclusive/etc for everyone is nice and an obvious decision.

We should just be careful not to make sure there won’t ever be a game run on POG anymore. I think wordings like “anyone who wants to run a game has to be willing to enforce said policy” are already a bit too strong. just my opinion. Maybe the game mods who kept POG WW alive for years (Uncle, gabe, bop) can chime in.

You don't seem to actually understand my definition, then, because it's pretty clear if something is or isn't.

Again, you don't need to know what ableism is. You just need to know what it means to use a feature of a person as an insult, and that that isn't OK.

That's why we have Greens and game mods.

like this and was initially trying (but failing by not posting anything) to do something like this

a ban that will effectively last until the end of the game seems like the perfect default for a first game-removal offense

You're not the world.

It's clear to you because it's a big part of your online existence, and it's clear to me because it's a subculture I find fascinating and frustrating; it is literally not clear to everyone or this wouldn't be an issue.

Any feature of any person?

I hope you're right, but I suspect you're not.

WW games and POG politics forum probably account for 98% of questionable conduct instances. I wonder how often someone has made a complaint or reported a post for a personal attack outside of WW and Politics?

This is 2020. This is not an online phenomenon. How often do you use the r-word in real life? Or call something gay? Or drop racist slurs? The goal is to get people on the internet to treat other human beings with the same respect here as they do in real life.

Monte is on point.

If you want to remove any doubt about the definition of slur, make it clear that you take the widest possible definition, not the narrowest. This **** isn't hard, it just requires a minimum effort to have the tiniest bit of empathy for human beings different from yourself

The thing is, this concept is not applied to all groups equally.

Ironically, this is post is extraordinarily classist.

And, again, for the fiftieth time, what I do or don't do while posting on POG is immaterial; I'm quite aware of what you think of me, and I have no doubt I'd have been (rightfully) pilloried for dropping casual slurs.