nope, im cool with lynching either one. sun is just the more obnoxious wolf at the moment so im madder at him. but voting loretta is perfectly fine.

and im berating myself cuz im more than a little nervous. but then i went to sleep and im still ****ing tired, and i decided i don't really care. you'll probably win because you're way more experienced, and that's fine.

so yes sun, if you win, you somehow managed to trick everyone. and maybe you won't feel forced to quit WW after all.

also, loretta you should just give up. you're a lock wolf and need to die.

I noticed this and have thought about this as well. Anarchist as a wolf could have crossed 27a off his list. Or, the wolves (without Anarchist) could have made note of what Anarchist was saying and crossed 27a off the list on their own.

Another important point is whether 27a was still crossed off their lists on d4 before the flutter kill. He was crossed off my list (to a certain extent) given how many times he pushed his peek. Lets assume wolves thought 27a was unlikely to be the seer. The flutter kill could have been:

1) A legitimate seerhunt, this is only true if Anarchist is a villager.

2) A seerhunt of someone they believed to have flipped a peek, in this case Anarchist. I find this highly unlikely.

3) The wolves could have said omg who the eff is the other seer, we are lost, lets just kill a clear player and hope it FPS-es Anarchist clear. This scenario is particularly likely if they thought VM could have been the seer (since most players' had completely blown seer cover such sa myself).

It's important to keep in mind that if the wolves targeted 27a or VM and were wrong, then the game is basically over. So when I reread the thread, I'll keep a close eye on VM and see if the wolves might have thought he was seer.

TY I'm reasonably proud of it. I actually had a pretty good d1, I found both Jim and Loretta wolfy and made some pretty decent cases on them. However, I never had the balls to really push them hard, although that's largely due to the fact that there were so many wolfy utr villagers in this game.

It's hindsight and it's moot since Jim is long gone, but I agree with your point. Villager Jim gets down to business and solves the game. Wolf Jim chats villagers up and pushes thin cases. But I hope Jim's not reading this because if he gets self-aware of his tells it will make it even harder to read him.

This was my first time playing with Kruze, but if this is how he plays as a villager then he needs to drastically change his game. His contributions this game have been saying "I'm a villager," sponging TL (a wolf), and mocking the importance of d1.

Yes this spews Loretta wolf somewhat. Wolves usually don't go out of their way to build v/v links between two villagers, but they do for a villager and a wolf.

I thought fluttershy was suspicious for her hard defense of Kruze as well, because I didn't know how a villager could look at Kruze and say "now there's a villager that's worth defending." But I was wrong.

--------------

Keep this posting up Sun, it's helpful to see what you were thinking at every stage of the game.

a villager questioning wolf jim for an inexplicable villa lean on a wolf

palo was an obvious villager

jim wanted to lynch him

and he was night-killed

after jim said the seer should peek him

another villager questioning jim for doing something shady

I thought I saw a wolfy triangle in jim, kruze and fluttershy

jim and kruze both fake-peeked flutter (and did it in a bad way)
flutter put both of them on her villager lists, for what I saw as superficial reasons

awesome post here:

- votes a wolf
- has palo as villagery (like everyone should have)
- has jim as a wolf
- sees jim/loretta as potentially w/w

the important thing is I wasn't the only one who thought jim was wolfy or that palo was an obvious villager

this has been discussed many times

it was her comment about the wolf list (liking it except for jim when jim was the only wolf on it)

another headshot

this fit with the idea I had of jim, flutter and kruze being wolves

this too

seriously, what villager leaves seer cover like this?

and the idea that he wouldn't fake-peek a wolf is just stupid

why wouldn't he?

I hadn't called jim a wolf yet, but it was obvious I suspected him by the way I was grouping him with kruze and flutter

note that I ask people questions, this is what villagers do

try to determine people's roles by trying to understand their thoughts

this answer was good enough for me

back to masony with aksdal

his reads looked pretty good and his thoughts looked real

I guess it's possible but I don't think it's likely that I would call out a villager for fake-peeking me and another wolf

but as a villager, you can bet your ass I'm going to call someone out for leaving ****ty seer cover, especially peeking me (wolves love to fake-peek me) and my main wolf suspect

still questioning jim

wolves say stuff like this so often, it's just silly

wolf timelady clearing wolf anarchist while calling him annoying

anarchist still hasn't explained why fake-peeking me would be a good reason to sponge me

but the reason is obvious: they were both villagers so he'd love for them to get lynched and for me to get blamed for it

but if he wants to pretend he's a villager, he's going to have to make up some reason a villager would do that

qft

palo was an obvious villager and jim was an obvious villager for pushing him

the fact that palo got night-killed after jim called for him to be peeked is lolsauce gravy

this is loretta's whole wolf game: calling villagers villagers for little or no reason

seer making his peeks obvious

villagery of WN

palo was an obvious villager and the people who pushed him were suspect

also, TL was wolfy for pretending to be baffled by the nk

seer making his peeks obvious

what is this?

is it supposed to look like wolf-hunting?

what kind of information could you possibly get from this?

add me and domer

again, loretta's wolf game is calling villagers villagers for little or no reason

pushing jim from the beginning

this was day 2, the first day I played

so tell me again that I didn't have anarchist as wolfy all game

suck it, bitches

aksdal had a couple roles from the mod

I have good reads

WN votes jim

and 2 villagers jump right on

flutter calling jim a villager and earning wolf points from me (and aksdal)

again, with the horribad "seer cover"

and didn't he just say I as was a clear villager?

votes for the howling wolf are horrible

why?

based on what exactly?

zsjostrom, soft-defending jim in classic w/w fashion "I'm not seeing the case" and earning wolf points from me, especially after jim is outed

solid case against jim

also potentially a peek at this point

anarchist follows this pattern throughout the game

he just calls a villager wolfy without providing any reasoning at all

jim calls zsjostrom out for clearing him lightly

this is weird and looked villagery of jim to me unless zsjostrom is a wolf with him

the wolves are aware of aksdal's peek (or fake-peek) of jim and this is their idea of spewing zsjostrom as a villa

so at this point I'm thinking jim, anarchist and zsjostrom are all wolfy
my only reservation is the possibility of anarchist actually being a seer
obviously I'm aware he's claiming to have peeked me (and I'm not happy about it)

and this here is a clear slip

it's obvious that anarchist wasn't even reading the conversation between jim and zsjostrom

this is damning imo

what is there to notice?

explain what you thought was wolfy

and don't say it doesn't matter because we know now that WN was a villager

it does matter because you need to explain what you were thinking

more of this silly w/w fake spew game

blah blah blah

so obviously w/w

seer making his peeks obvious

aksdal also thought fluttershy was wolfy

and probably for the same reasons I did (clearing wolves)

note I wasn't pushing kruze

I pushed jim all day and only switched to kruze toward the end when the wagons were master/kruze

a seer, making his peeks obvious

anarchist calling a villager wolfy for little or no reason

again

note there is no wolf-hunting or even pretending

just attacking

more of the same

why would domer want to vote a tilty villager for not reading the thread closely?

I haven't experienced anarchist's wolf game before this game but apparently VM has

he points out exactly what anarchist has been doing

lol @ the wolves if posts like this threw them off

calling another villager a wolf or very bad

for no good reason

anyone see a pattern yet?

congratulations, your IQ is at least 65

didn't anarchist call me out for calling people wolves?

what is he doing here?

and what did I actually do?

I made a post saying flutter and kruze were wolves

then I latched onto jim (an actual wolf zomg!) and pushed him until he got lynched

and you can't say it was only after it was clear he had been peeked

I was on him from the beginning

VM seems to know exactly what anarchist's wolf game looks like

someone should probably look into that if they're not sure

jumping on irrelevant details

no wolf-hunting

no questioning

just "you're a wolf"

is that what he does as a wolf?

I don't know but someone could probably look into that

I'd be willing to bet that it isn't

and that villager anarchist would not be all over VM like this

sure thing

villagery response (to me)

note I'm not just attacking him

I ask questions

I want to understand his thought processes to figure out his role

I want VM to read the whole thread before I try to read him

"pretty obviously a villager anyway"

until I push wolves and argue against his wolfy agenda

a villager voting fluttershy

do I get on that?

no

a villager voting VM, another easy wagon for me (I was on it at this time)

pay attention to how the day develops

he's going to go on insane monkey tilt if a villager doesn't get lynched

a villager that I don't think villager anarchist would think was a wolf

note jim was being discussed as a wagon

this is garbage

making a "soft" seer-claim to protect a wolf

does it look like seer cover?

not at all

it's only purpose is to protect jim

at this point, I'm thinking if anarchist isn't a seer, he needs to die

guess what

he's not a seer

I call him out for it

qfmft

ok so the theory is what?

wolf Sun wanted to smash villager anarchist's defense of jim for what?

villager cred?

wait, didn't anarchist call me out for calling flutter a wolf?

but he put flutter down at the bottom

with a bunch of other villagers that it would make no sense for him to believe are wolves

or if he had reasons for it, he never posted them

and I wasn't pushing flutter at this point

I was hot on the trail of the real wolves, jim -> zsjostrom -> anarchist

tell me again I've played badly

suck it bitches

true

like I said, if anarchist isn't a seer (and if jim is a wolf he obviously isn't), anarchist needs to die

so we lynch a villager?

wolf wants to lynch outside the claim (other wagons are VM and jinxy)

the wolves realize jim is peeked but want to squeeze in a free mislynch

"idk what to do" let's ask sanga

note anarchist said the same thing (that he wanted to know what sanga and I thought) but when I said there was no reason to lynch outside the claim, he spazzed out did something completely different from what he had said

in other words, he was lying when he said that and he was just hoping we would both say to not lynch jim

this is damning

here's the post I was talking about

I think I have it out of order in my multiquote and it was before timelady's similar post

in any case, my point is valid

he said one thing and then did something else when it didn't go the way he wanted

27 feels the same way I did: the claim is obviously legit and jim was wolfy anyway

WN, another villager fells the claim is legit and it's a good idea to just lynch the obvious wolf

and it was the right thing to do

I'm not being results oriented

like I've said many times already, you lynch outside the claims when:
- there are competing claims
- there is a problem with the claim
- the claimant was in danger of getting lynched

none of those conditions were true

the odds of aksdal being a wolf there are negligible

exacltly

and jim votes himself

would he do that as a villager?

I hope not

I really don't think he would

oh hey

a wolf wants to lynch outside the claim

they really want this mislynch

a villager wants to just lynch the obvious wolf

anyone notice a pattern yet?

all of those players were villagers

coincidence?

this has to be a lie. There's no way chips said that

it is very clear cut

you lynch the wolf

every time

and the fact that villager well named voted jim supports my point

is this a villager wanting to cfd a wolf for defending a wolf or is it a wolf wanting to cfd a villager for defending a wolf?

one makes sense

one doesn't

the same pattern

calling a villager wolfy but without giving any reasoning

the wolves really wanted this mislynch

VM was on their list of mislynches and anarchist was tilting at it slipping away

if you lynch the wolf, you are probably a wolf

so lynch one of the villager wagons instead

say what?

I was pushing him earlier

but I wasn't sure he was a wolf

I was sure jim was

ok, now imagine I was a wolf

how easy would it be to just go along with the outside the claim thing?

why would I fight it so hard?

calling a villager wolfy for wanting to lynch a wolf over a villager

qft

there is literally no reason for villager anarchist to react this way

this is completely false

good players know the correct move here is to lynch the peeked wolf

your post is very long, ask me a list of questions i can respond to instead of you making stuff up.

i noticed several contradictions very obviously in your tl;dr multiquote already. for one you said you knew palo was an obvious villager, then you criticized me for voting someone for voting palo! also, you were seerhunting then and you're trying to use that as villa points? I laid perfectly good seer cover. and of course you're going to be results oriented, you KNEW JIM WAS A WOLF. LYNCHING OUTSIDE THE CLAIM WAS STILL CORRECT.

but the biggest contradiction of all is the following:

you said that variance knew this was my wolf game and keep harping on it. that is false. the last thing variance said is that he would support lynching you over me. and same with well named. and same with fluttershy. it's because everyone ITT knows and knew you're a wolf. yet you still keep trying to find OLDER posts where they called you a villager. however, if you quote their LAST posts, it's quite clear they knew or at least suspected you are a wolf.

additionally, what you're describing isn't even how i play wolf anyway. as a wolf i don't push easy mislynches, i bus a LOT for credit. so you're now making something up and using it to build a case.

if i were a wolf, i would have bussed jim when he was peeked. 100% of the time. ALways. every time.

the fact that you did it is one of the things that tipped me off to you being a wolf. because it's such a suspicious play.

it's in my multiquote

after jim starts getting heat and is afraid he's been peeked, he starts doing the fake spew dance with zsjostrom, who calls jim a villager for some stupid reason and jim calls him a wolf for defending him

then anarchist replies with "just because he called you a wolf doesn't mean he's one", showing he wasn't even paying attention to the conversation they were having

ok, I'll get to that at some point then

my point is that will just be speculation on my part




there's no slip up

there is one wolf between me and anarchist

loretta is irrelevant

one thing worth pointing out is that the reason anarchist wants to lynch me, rather than loretta is because he wins on the spot if that happens

for the village to win, we have to lynch both of them

im playing the same way i've played every other villager game. looking at peoples' tone and motives to see what their intentions are. your tone this game has been to bully people into mislynches. you've stated you "knew" who the wolves are and pushed for their lynches. this is false. i will go quote your voting record when i get back from class. this entire time you've posted about how you've known stuff, yet you made sure your vote ended up on a villager EVERY TIME except when we had a peeked wolf and you knew you could bus for credit.

and the specific post about well named, obviously (and i mean obviously) i asked him that rhetorical question "are you wolfing" to get him to talk to me so i could get a tone read off of him. stop nitpicking every goddamn thing, it just shows you have an agenda.

another false statement. i am 100% happy to lynch loretta today. the only reason i'm scared is because i don't want you pulling any shenanigans at f3. you've made today all about me so that you can get me mislynched tomorrow. you're already setting it up. whatever, if it works that's not too embarassing cuz you're a good player. but it really shouldn't since your agenda is clear.

sanga and domer can ask you whatever questions they want, based on my posts and/or their own thoughts

you're not going to convince me you're a villager

but please show me (and the jury) where I've made stuff up

I wasn't seerhunting

I've pointed out in my multiquotes that the seers made their peeks obvious

that's relevant to the question of fps, which is the only thing you have going for you

aksdal was pretty obvious on the day he claimed, which was why I encouraged him to claim; he said himself he thought that he would get night-killed

him claiming there was 100% correct imo

and lynching jim there is 100% correct

every time

don't think that you can pull a fast one about this just because sanga and domer are new players and you killed off WN

you lynch the wolf-peek in that spot

every time

there's nothing results-oriented about it

I'm not looking for posts where anyone called me a villager

please show me where I did that

you just got caught lying again

afaik, the only person I've quoted calling me a villager was you

I'm not going to use reads from players who had tons of bad reads as any kind of evidence

what kind of **** is that?

I'm using logical arguments; no appeals to authority, no appeals to popular opinion

this isn't a survey; we're not going to poll the audience

I'm a villager and you're a wolf and I'm pointing out all the evidence that shows that

feel free to dispute anything you disagree with

but make sure it's something I actually said

don't just pretend I said something that I didn't

and in any case, that's not even true because well named said there was basically no way I could be a wolf

and the only reason VM thought you were clear was because of the stupid nk

and are you sure you want to use flutter's read (self-described as fear) of me to support your case?

she had 4 of the 5 wolves in her villager lists

did that tip you off that aksdal, WN, 27ai, and VM were wolves too?

and claiming that the correct play is a suspicious play is just digging your hole deeper

no one is going to fall for that

yes, I have an agenda

I want the truth to be as obvious as possible

that's my agenda

and I'm through responding to you

I'm not going to waste any more posts on your garbage

Ugh I hate that. Firefox has been crashing on me way too often after the recent updates.

Because I've never seen Anarchist peek a wolf on d1 as a wolf before. It's a single data point of Anarchist doing something I've never seen him do as a wolf, so it increases the likelihood that Anarchist is a villager.

This does seem pretty w/w. Timelady makes one of those reads that isn't really a read. It's more like a "Hey did you guys know Anarchist is a villager when he's annoying? And my has he been annoying this game."

Good point. Anarchist should know better than to sponge his peek especially if he thinks his peek's game is off as it seemed he suspected you were that day.

To be fair, your reads weren't perfect. Yes you were right to be suspicious of Jim and you could clear a couple players like me and domer (and Palo, in hindsight), but you weren't the only one. 3/4 likely wolves on this list are villagers, and 2/5 likely villagers are wolves, although you are 2/2 on obvious villagers. But really everyone could say sangaman was a villager, I'd been very active and villagery and I was SHC. One of my points along is that the never wolves never had any sort of plan that involved mislynching me.

Somehow the first time I read this I saw "just because someone calls you a villager does not make them a wolf." But you're right. Anarchist clearly had zsj's post backwards and that does mean he didn't read zsj's posts but chose to comment on it anyway.

I agree that VM rereading the thread from the beginning wasn't wolfy. It was probably a waste of time to read from the beginning with no knowledge of the NKs and lynches, but the fact that VM was trying to reread at all could only increase the likelihood that he was a villager. It does look a bit like Anarchist was trying not to let a mislynch slip away.

Domer was actually convinced VM was a wolf and pushed him hard.

This is a pretty good point. It's a bad play to soft claim to hard defend a player for the sole reason that you may have peeked him.

Good point. He clearly says he'll do what Sun and sanga want to do. I think I my take on the situation was I'm not sure what to do but I'm leaning towards lynching outside the claim, and I was torn between VM and Jinxy. You on the other hand were quite adamant that you wanted to lynch Jim. So why would he listen to one of us that's less sure? He even hard claimed vanillager so it's not like he had even a shred of seer cover worth preserving by not voting Jim.

27 felt the same way you did because he had TMI that Aksdal was a villager. He should have voted Jim. If I had peeked Aksdal, I would have voted Jim and made up some case for why lynching Jim was correct, I wouldn't have gone along with one of my other peeks who was unsure what to do but was leaning outside the claim.


[QUOTEthis has to be a lie. There's no way chips said that[/QUOTE]

Here is what I believe Anarchist was referring to.

Let me know your thoughts on this, Sun.

I don't want to be accused of "not reading the thread" but can you show where variance said he'd rather lynch Sun over you? I know WN felt that way, but he was pretty sure you were both villagers really. I'll reread on my own and pay attention for this if you don't quote it.

Anarchist, in Video Games I don't really remember you bussing anyone. Gad a bit but you didn't vote him on d1, only when it was obvious he was a wolf IIRC. Of course the wolves crushed that game, so bussing wasn't necessary.

I don't really buy in to arguments that a player would never do something as a wolf that's trivially easy to do as a wolf.

This makes sense.

------------------------------

Alright here's where I stand. I'm going to be operating under the assumption that Loretta is a wolf for now. I gave Loretta a chance to make me think he's a villager, but I don't think that's going to happen. So from now on I'm considering only two wolf teams, Sun/Jim/TL/zsj/Loretta and Anarchist/Jim/TL/zsj/Loretta.

I'm going to start rereading the thread soon and I'll try to look at everything both ways. I'm blowing off work for the next few hours. I won't be quoting/responding to everything or try building a case since the only person I'm really trying to convince is my wolf, but I'll try to share some thoughts as I go along so you guys know where I'm at.

Sun and Anarchist, I think you've both played good games and you've both earned my respect. Sun, your work and your posts today have been tremendous and, in a vacuum, I'd be shocked if you were a wolf. But as of yesterday, I didn't see any way for Anarchist to be a wolf either (largely based on the Flutter NK). So I'm doing something wrong somewhere and I'm going to try to figure it out.

this seemed to be his opinion. and i largely agree with it obviously. Sun Tzu was pushing shanks hard which makes no sense given his claim that he "knew who the wolves are."

sanga, we've played a lot together. i'm really not this tricky. you're thinking about 3 levels too high imo. take all the time you need, but i'm pretty sure level 1 solves this game.

This is your voting history from days 2 through 4. Day 1 you didn't even both to vote. Day 2 you voted for a villager. Day 3 you went inside the claim. After that you voted for the outed/peeked wolves just like everyone else.

So my question is, if the wolves were so obvious as you claim, why did you never vote for them?

anarchist, can you and sun please post the wolf chat logs of the two of you planning out your coordinated in thread attacks on each other after i get mislynched here?

loretta, i want to thank you in advance for not planning the end of game out at all.

as a result, you spewed sun so, so hard.

should have though about that one before the shanks mislynch.

as for that chips stuff about whether or not to lynch outside the claim, situations are situational. the game chips was yelling at you about, lynching inside the claim was lolbad, here, in the absence of a counter, it was a perfectly reasonable move. i'm kinda surprised anarchist didn't jump on jim the way sun did, i guess it was all part of the plan to set up the impossibility of you two being w/w

i didn't jump on jim because it's a terrible play and outs you as a wolf. the only way you can do that is if you know jim is a wolf. and the only way that's true is if you're his partner.

an uncountered seer said he was a wolf

therefore, he was a wolf

jim did counter. he said he was a villager. unless someone lolcats, why would you test a seer claim? let the wolves do it. you and sun know this and you're just trolling me

I'm going to be following along to see if these peeks make sense for VM. If he was in seer contention, it's much more likely that Fluttershy was FPSed. That's because wolves can't afford to be wrong if they choose between 27a and VM, it's game over if they kill an uncleared vanillager on n4. In that case, killing Flutter might actually be the "safer" play.

Could be w/w with Anarchist here.

Sangaman n0 peek.

This is towards Anarchist. This is a bit w/w in the same way that Jim was giving zsj a hard time over petty things. I think Jim tried to spew zsj villager (but it backfired) and he may have been trying to do the same thing here with Anarchist.

---------------------

Done with d1. d2 becomes interesting because that's when becomes Sun starts participating.

variance obv wasn't seer since both sun and anarchist are wolves

hope that helps, sanga

Says the person who conveniently missed EOD on d3 and didn't have to take a stand on the claim.

Something to note here is that a seer would only counterclaim if they have knowledge that Aksdal's claim is false. Since there were multiple seers, it's like the seer could have said "you can't be the seer because I'm the seer."

Where is the spew? Is it just that Loretta said Sun was a likely villager the last two days? Because I really can't buy that, after the wolves have perfect info it's dangerous to get information from anything they say.

Yes. Loretta and Sun have not interacted even ONCE in thread. Yet mysteriously loretta has sun down as a lock wolf and says never to lynch him. And mysteriously they both want to push shanks, and both have made me the focus of their attention today.