1/5 vanilla+ POKEMON game thread!
01-06-2012
, 06:16 PM
A little too emotional to be sincere imo. Again, wolfy punctuation.
Standard necro
Again I don't like the 'wow'. In b4 necro and VMF are w/w
This isn't the VMF villa I know.
Moocher being pretty inconsistent so far in terms of niceness. Probably marginally villagery in itself but insignificant.
I kind of agree
Well at least we get some content from felix but he calls captain binkles wolfy which is, interesting....
Villagery.
Solid post, no fear continues to be villagery.
I hope so, otherwise the vote on Gad is just bad.
Right, gearing up for the home stretch now.
Standard necro
This isn't the VMF villa I know.
I kind of agree
Quote:
I wish I could have finished a full in-depth d1 reread, but I need to get at least a couple hours of sleep.
Here's my more confident reads:
Villagers
VarianceMinefield - I think his very exhaustive leans list and general play style has been much more in line from what I've seen of his village game in the past.
chrja - Primarily for having villager thinking going on. He pointed out a lot of the same things I noticed while rereading, chiefly VarianceMinefield has too many reads (in fact, she had a read posted on everyone who had posted thus far). He also was prompt, clear, and IMO good in his defense of his opinions.
Wolf
captain binkles - this is probably going to be unpopular, but there's several solid reasons to think he's a wolf.
First: he has several posts in the general pattern of this one about LuckayLuck, Noah, and VarianceMinefield. The Noah part is the interesting one. Here's a direct copy/paste from my notes, so apologies if it's not all flowery wording:
Second: this post encouraging Noah to consider some theoretical future adjustments of his game. Again, from my notes:
Third: he suggests in this post that magic_gazz's "sorry for being UTR" post was intentionally camoflaged among other similar posts so as not to draw attention. There is absolutely no reason to get all conspiracy theorist here - this theory would assume that magic_gazz is lying about not being around too much, and instead is... watching the thread to find the perfect spot to say he won't be around too much. There's good, standard reasons not to like it when someone apologizes in advance for being UTR... and then there's completely ridiculous things like this. NB: this isn't wolfy per se but it contributes to the theory that captain binkles is very far from having a villager's thought process going on. It seemed like, given the context, that binkles saw that other people were calling out magic_gazz and wanted to get in on it, but didn't want to have the same reason as them, so he rolled with the first new reason that came to mind to call out magic_gazz. Also note that this post, as with most others of his, comes with a qualifying statement, an "out" on his read - this is a common theme, as we'll see in...
...fourth: captain binkles makes a reads list and wolfs it up. A couple of things stand out here. First, look at his villager reads: almost every one is qualified with a built-in reason to flip the read around. Villagers, in general, don't concern themselves with covering themselves for future changes of reads on players, especially not on d1. Next, look at his wolf reads, then look at his villager reads, then look at his wolf reads again: notice the difference? The villager reads are all one- or two-liners. The wolf reads are much lengthier. Maybe I'm just psyching myself out by this point, but it looks like captain binkles is afraid of his wolf reads and felt like he had to expend much more effort defending them.
And an interesting observation: captain binkles early in the thread is friendly, enthusiastic, open, happy towards everyone in his initial posts towards them... except for AKSpartan. When talking to AKSpartan, he's somewhat curt, direct, more adversarial, immediately questioning him (rather than asking him questions). I'd suggest that, should captain ever be lynched, and should he flip wolf, that makes AKSpartan a bit more likely to be wolf with him.
------------------
If external links are OK, I'll link to my reads spreadsheet and (somewhat) cleaned up notes from my d1 reread. I have 4.5 pages of notes so far, don't want to copy/paste them here, it's more showing my work since inevitably someone's going to complain "omg you spent all that time rereading and you only have opinions on 3 people" and try to lynch me again or something, which would be somewhat tilting.
Here's my more confident reads:
Villagers
VarianceMinefield - I think his very exhaustive leans list and general play style has been much more in line from what I've seen of his village game in the past.
chrja - Primarily for having villager thinking going on. He pointed out a lot of the same things I noticed while rereading, chiefly VarianceMinefield has too many reads (in fact, she had a read posted on everyone who had posted thus far). He also was prompt, clear, and IMO good in his defense of his opinions.
Wolf
captain binkles - this is probably going to be unpopular, but there's several solid reasons to think he's a wolf.
First: he has several posts in the general pattern of this one about LuckayLuck, Noah, and VarianceMinefield. The Noah part is the interesting one. Here's a direct copy/paste from my notes, so apologies if it's not all flowery wording:
Second: this post encouraging Noah to consider some theoretical future adjustments of his game. Again, from my notes:
Third: he suggests in this post that magic_gazz's "sorry for being UTR" post was intentionally camoflaged among other similar posts so as not to draw attention. There is absolutely no reason to get all conspiracy theorist here - this theory would assume that magic_gazz is lying about not being around too much, and instead is... watching the thread to find the perfect spot to say he won't be around too much. There's good, standard reasons not to like it when someone apologizes in advance for being UTR... and then there's completely ridiculous things like this. NB: this isn't wolfy per se but it contributes to the theory that captain binkles is very far from having a villager's thought process going on. It seemed like, given the context, that binkles saw that other people were calling out magic_gazz and wanted to get in on it, but didn't want to have the same reason as them, so he rolled with the first new reason that came to mind to call out magic_gazz. Also note that this post, as with most others of his, comes with a qualifying statement, an "out" on his read - this is a common theme, as we'll see in...
...fourth: captain binkles makes a reads list and wolfs it up. A couple of things stand out here. First, look at his villager reads: almost every one is qualified with a built-in reason to flip the read around. Villagers, in general, don't concern themselves with covering themselves for future changes of reads on players, especially not on d1. Next, look at his wolf reads, then look at his villager reads, then look at his wolf reads again: notice the difference? The villager reads are all one- or two-liners. The wolf reads are much lengthier. Maybe I'm just psyching myself out by this point, but it looks like captain binkles is afraid of his wolf reads and felt like he had to expend much more effort defending them.
And an interesting observation: captain binkles early in the thread is friendly, enthusiastic, open, happy towards everyone in his initial posts towards them... except for AKSpartan. When talking to AKSpartan, he's somewhat curt, direct, more adversarial, immediately questioning him (rather than asking him questions). I'd suggest that, should captain ever be lynched, and should he flip wolf, that makes AKSpartan a bit more likely to be wolf with him.
------------------
If external links are OK, I'll link to my reads spreadsheet and (somewhat) cleaned up notes from my d1 reread. I have 4.5 pages of notes so far, don't want to copy/paste them here, it's more showing my work since inevitably someone's going to complain "omg you spent all that time rereading and you only have opinions on 3 people" and try to lynch me again or something, which would be somewhat tilting.
Quote:
I have a question for people. Do you use a notepad or keep some sort of program open to make your reads or is it just from memory?
In the game that just finished I had someone as a wolf from pretty early in the game, when we got deep in the game someone questioned why I had him as a wolf. I honestly couldnt remember exactly what it was. I basicaly peged him early and he didnt do anything to make me change my read.
The reason I bring this up is with so many players in this game there is a good chance im going to start forgetting things.
In the game that just finished I had someone as a wolf from pretty early in the game, when we got deep in the game someone questioned why I had him as a wolf. I honestly couldnt remember exactly what it was. I basicaly peged him early and he didnt do anything to make me change my read.
The reason I bring this up is with so many players in this game there is a good chance im going to start forgetting things.
Quote:
Just read the thread from today. Thoughts on those incoming, but first:
MonkeyPhonics
I would like to restate my case I made on monkey earlier, as I noticed a couple of extra things.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=654
From the quotes I posted I noticed a couple extra things.
1) With regards to Monkey saying that he does not like to bandwagon for the sake of it, why would he throw a vote on magic, who was a wagon for most of the day, but call it a joke vote?
2) 6:38PM
I ask him why is vote is still on Magic, despite him saying earlier that he was just "dicking around"
6:43PM
A little more than an hour before EOD and he says he hasn't found a suitable replacement for a joke vote? Doesn't seem to like that I am asking him questions.
6:46PM
6:53 PM
10 minutes later he all of a sudden has someone he likes as a wagon, saying he doesn't like what he is posting without giving a reason to really what. sixfour did not post much and only had 1 post after 4:40 PM, a vote on Cakewalk at 6:40PM, as he left for the day, right before this conversation with Monkey. If he truly felt sixfour was wolfy, he would have likely come to this conclusion wayy before he was prodded for it.
Monkey's next two posts are fluff and he disappears for the day about 7:17PM. He has given no thoughts other than to call 2 people villagy with no reasoning and the one person who he thinks is wolfy he gave a half-hearted excuse to vote, when many people were already calling sixfour wolfy way before this.
MonkeyPhonics
I would like to restate my case I made on monkey earlier, as I noticed a couple of extra things.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=654
From the quotes I posted I noticed a couple extra things.
1) With regards to Monkey saying that he does not like to bandwagon for the sake of it, why would he throw a vote on magic, who was a wagon for most of the day, but call it a joke vote?
2) 6:38PM
I ask him why is vote is still on Magic, despite him saying earlier that he was just "dicking around"
6:43PM
A little more than an hour before EOD and he says he hasn't found a suitable replacement for a joke vote? Doesn't seem to like that I am asking him questions.
6:46PM
6:53 PM
10 minutes later he all of a sudden has someone he likes as a wagon, saying he doesn't like what he is posting without giving a reason to really what. sixfour did not post much and only had 1 post after 4:40 PM, a vote on Cakewalk at 6:40PM, as he left for the day, right before this conversation with Monkey. If he truly felt sixfour was wolfy, he would have likely come to this conclusion wayy before he was prodded for it.
Monkey's next two posts are fluff and he disappears for the day about 7:17PM. He has given no thoughts other than to call 2 people villagy with no reasoning and the one person who he thinks is wolfy he gave a half-hearted excuse to vote, when many people were already calling sixfour wolfy way before this.
I hope so, otherwise the vote on Gad is just bad.
Right, gearing up for the home stretch now.
01-06-2012
, 06:16 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:17 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:17 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:18 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:19 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:19 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:20 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:22 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:25 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:25 PM
Quote:
Hi guys, Magmar, a spitfire pokemon checking in here.
I just want to apologize to pikachu, it was nothing personal dude, you came for a gym battle and I gave you a gym battle. Also, Charizard, if I see you are here then you are dead.
I'm in another game atm so will catch up later.
I just want to apologize to pikachu, it was nothing personal dude, you came for a gym battle and I gave you a gym battle. Also, Charizard, if I see you are here then you are dead.
I'm in another game atm so will catch up later.
Quote:
Breaking captain's post to me up into its constituent parts:
So I used to be terrible at reading Jim. He absolutely owned me in the Metal Gear Solid mishmash last summer, and for a while there was this Circle of Soulread between me, him, and Krayz (
miss Krayz) wherein I could read Krayz really well but not Jim, Jim could read me really well but not Krayz, and Krayz could read Jim really well but not me. I've played a ton of games with Jim over the last few months, and I've put some work into figuring out his tone because he's such a strong player. (I also modded a game where he wolfed on another board, which was really helpful b/c I could see his thought processes from behind the scenes.) As a result, I've gotten much, much better at reading him, to the point where I feel like I can probably gauge his tone more accurately than can almost anyone else on the site. In the recent Viking Village game, I pegged Jim as a way >rand wolf from his first post, and have not stopped patting myself on the back ever since. (I also figured him for a wolf fairly early in the Duckburg mishmash, but got nked before I could coalesce my read.) All of this is a long way of explaining why I feel so confident in my villa read of him here -- he is a very strong player in either role, to be sure, but there is some stuff he's done from the getgo in this game that I don't think he ever quite replicates as a wolf in real-time. (And to be fair, I may be puffing up the meta a bit in my own mind, since there was a short period late in the Santa's Workshop game where I got paranoid about Jim being a wolf and he was actually seer.)
I see that none of that answers your questions.
If I was a wolf and Jim was a villa, I think I would probably feel comfortable clearing him like this, because (a) I would have the benefit of essentially perfect information (excluding the chance of Jim being sk, which I think is <rand); (b) it would be consistent with the soulread meta I've established in recent games; and (c) calling villas villa when you're a wolf can always be a useful tactic to slip a little inside their psychological blind spot. That being said, I might worry about "clearing" Jim as w/v for the reason that Evene ( 
) pointed out yesterday: that if people give credence to my read, then they start viewing him as clearer themselves and it lessens the possibility of mislynching an extremely strong player.
The same considerations work in reverse if we're w/w. I might be hesitant to make a confident "Jim = villa" read for fear that people will suspect me if and when he flips wolf, since I've been vocal lately about my ability to soulread him. At the same time, proclaiming Jim as villa when we're both wolves could be a way to get him clearer in other people's eyes, although I don't generally have any doubt that he can clear himself as a wolf, as not everyone can read him as well as I can.
So: yes to both questions, but slightly less likely to do it as w/w than as w/v. And extremely likely to do it as v/v, obv.
I read your MQ of fanmail while I was on the bus last night, and it only solidified my villager lean on him (and you); I haven't gone back and reread him myself, since once I got back and had dinner it was nearing EOD and he wasn't a wagon candidate. This is probably why your original formulation of two people asking each other to reread two different people is a more fruitful avenue. To make it up to you, I will reread a person of your choice this afternoon, and I suspect I know who it will be based on your later post. (I'll do a reread of AKSpartan. If this wasn't who you would have picked, then I'll reread someone else when you're back around.)
I remember that game (and yeah, I was seer) but I don't remember the context of the quote. One of my weaknesses in WW is the lack of work ethic and focus to go back and construct detailed cases on people in either role. For a long time I felt I was a much better wolf than a villa because I could get by on villagery tone and pointing out random inconsistencies as a wolf, but I sort of sucked at finding wolves as a villa (and it was hard for me to get clear, b/c villagery tone didn't get me very far). And, indeed, some of my best games as villa have been where I was basically clear from the beginning, like the Game of Thrones game as Hodor or the Shadows of Amn game where I outed myself as villa randomizer on d1, and I could just putter along building reads over multiple days. I think my village game has improved a ton in recent months, but it's because I've gotten much better at reading tone, finding actual, meaningful inconsistencies in people's posts, and working through POE scenarios (or I may simply have been running good) -- I still essentially suck at putting together detailed cases. Obviously, no d1 cases are going to be that detailed, but I don't think there's a glaring discrepancy between the extent to which I wolfhunt in the early going as a villa and the extent to which I pretend to wolfhunt in the early going as a wolf -- it's mostly dependent on my real-life energy/mood level and ability to commit blocks of time to the game rather than having to catch up in intervals. (Me making a case on AKSpartan in the game you mention is probably the exception to my d1 village play in that regard, rather than the rule.) That being said, I've got some candidates right now that I want to engage with a bit based on stuff that happened yesterday, so I'm probably going to put more effort into constructing cases today, and hopefully the coastiness concerns will subside.
That went long. You asked interesting questions.
So I used to be terrible at reading Jim. He absolutely owned me in the Metal Gear Solid mishmash last summer, and for a while there was this Circle of Soulread between me, him, and Krayz (
miss Krayz) wherein I could read Krayz really well but not Jim, Jim could read me really well but not Krayz, and Krayz could read Jim really well but not me. I've played a ton of games with Jim over the last few months, and I've put some work into figuring out his tone because he's such a strong player. (I also modded a game where he wolfed on another board, which was really helpful b/c I could see his thought processes from behind the scenes.) As a result, I've gotten much, much better at reading him, to the point where I feel like I can probably gauge his tone more accurately than can almost anyone else on the site. In the recent Viking Village game, I pegged Jim as a way >rand wolf from his first post, and have not stopped patting myself on the back ever since. (I also figured him for a wolf fairly early in the Duckburg mishmash, but got nked before I could coalesce my read.) All of this is a long way of explaining why I feel so confident in my villa read of him here -- he is a very strong player in either role, to be sure, but there is some stuff he's done from the getgo in this game that I don't think he ever quite replicates as a wolf in real-time. (And to be fair, I may be puffing up the meta a bit in my own mind, since there was a short period late in the Santa's Workshop game where I got paranoid about Jim being a wolf and he was actually seer.)I see that none of that answers your questions.
If I was a wolf and Jim was a villa, I think I would probably feel comfortable clearing him like this, because (a) I would have the benefit of essentially perfect information (excluding the chance of Jim being sk, which I think is <rand); (b) it would be consistent with the soulread meta I've established in recent games; and (c) calling villas villa when you're a wolf can always be a useful tactic to slip a little inside their psychological blind spot. That being said, I might worry about "clearing" Jim as w/v for the reason that Evene ( ) pointed out yesterday: that if people give credence to my read, then they start viewing him as clearer themselves and it lessens the possibility of mislynching an extremely strong player.The same considerations work in reverse if we're w/w. I might be hesitant to make a confident "Jim = villa" read for fear that people will suspect me if and when he flips wolf, since I've been vocal lately about my ability to soulread him. At the same time, proclaiming Jim as villa when we're both wolves could be a way to get him clearer in other people's eyes, although I don't generally have any doubt that he can clear himself as a wolf, as not everyone can read him as well as I can.
So: yes to both questions, but slightly less likely to do it as w/w than as w/v. And extremely likely to do it as v/v, obv.
I read your MQ of fanmail while I was on the bus last night, and it only solidified my villager lean on him (and you); I haven't gone back and reread him myself, since once I got back and had dinner it was nearing EOD and he wasn't a wagon candidate. This is probably why your original formulation of two people asking each other to reread two different people is a more fruitful avenue.
To make it up to you, I will reread a person of your choice this afternoon, and I suspect I know who it will be based on your later post. (I'll do a reread of AKSpartan. If this wasn't who you would have picked, then I'll reread someone else when you're back around.)I remember that game (and yeah, I was seer) but I don't remember the context of the quote. One of my weaknesses in WW is the lack of work ethic and focus to go back and construct detailed cases on people in either role. For a long time I felt I was a much better wolf than a villa because I could get by on villagery tone and pointing out random inconsistencies as a wolf, but I sort of sucked at finding wolves as a villa (and it was hard for me to get clear, b/c villagery tone didn't get me very far). And, indeed, some of my best games as villa have been where I was basically clear from the beginning, like the Game of Thrones game as Hodor or the Shadows of Amn game where I outed myself as villa randomizer on d1, and I could just putter along building reads over multiple days. I think my village game has improved a ton in recent months, but it's because I've gotten much better at reading tone, finding actual, meaningful inconsistencies in people's posts, and working through POE scenarios (or I may simply have been running good) -- I still essentially suck at putting together detailed cases. Obviously, no d1 cases are going to be that detailed, but I don't think there's a glaring discrepancy between the extent to which I wolfhunt in the early going as a villa and the extent to which I pretend to wolfhunt in the early going as a wolf -- it's mostly dependent on my real-life energy/mood level and ability to commit blocks of time to the game rather than having to catch up in intervals. (Me making a case on AKSpartan in the game you mention is probably the exception to my d1 village play in that regard, rather than the rule.) That being said, I've got some candidates right now that I want to engage with a bit based on stuff that happened yesterday, so I'm probably going to put more effort into constructing cases today, and hopefully the coastiness concerns will subside.
That went long. You asked interesting questions.
Quote:
Alright sorry for being so UTR yesterday, I got roped into going to buy maternity pants with the wife after work yesterday (luckily I was rewarded with Steak n Shake). I've read the thread so far, and I'm going to try to go back and some detailed read posts to flesh out my thoughts. First, Supine:
Opening:
and the next few posts:
Seems slightly off to me that he would not realize he was going to be AFK and had to modify his second post, but as someone who was UTR I understand stuff can come up.
And here's a perfectly reasonable explanation, all good so far.
Now he's questioning other players about willi
and the captain
and responds to responses about willi
and the captain
All of this seems fine to me so far. I have a general dislike for people that ask other people to do their work for them (to me that seems wolfy), but here supine is asking some semi-meta questions regarding other players.
Next he says that he doesn't like willi's relaxed tone, and gives sort of a throwaway answer about his wolf game. I don't really have enough experience with willi to know if that tell is accurate, and he didn't really work to hard at trying to convince anyway he wasn't a wolf (which gives me a little villa lean, in my limited experience a wolf works a little harder to clear themselves when pressured).
Here he's responding to a post by AKSpartan saying he's impossible to read, which he disputes. He again doesn't seemed overly concerned with clearing himself.
Next a warning about forsy.
Response to hoya's mega-strat post where he claims seer at the end. Doesn't really add anything here.
Responding to Moocher's question about forsy seer claim victory.
Sparring with VarianceMinefield.
I agree with his last post that he doesn't have a ton of content, but there are more than a few players (myself included) that fall into that category. I didn't see any posts that were overtly wolfy, but other players such as Felix, as Telecontar mentioned during EOD yesterday, have provided more content with fewer posts. I'd like to see some more content from Supine, but I'm hesitant to wagon him as of this point.
Opening:
and the next few posts:
Seems slightly off to me that he would not realize he was going to be AFK and had to modify his second post, but as someone who was UTR I understand stuff can come up.
And here's a perfectly reasonable explanation, all good so far.
Now he's questioning other players about willi
and the captain
and responds to responses about willi
and the captain
All of this seems fine to me so far. I have a general dislike for people that ask other people to do their work for them (to me that seems wolfy), but here supine is asking some semi-meta questions regarding other players.
Next he says that he doesn't like willi's relaxed tone, and gives sort of a throwaway answer about his wolf game. I don't really have enough experience with willi to know if that tell is accurate, and he didn't really work to hard at trying to convince anyway he wasn't a wolf (which gives me a little villa lean, in my limited experience a wolf works a little harder to clear themselves when pressured).
Here he's responding to a post by AKSpartan saying he's impossible to read, which he disputes. He again doesn't seemed overly concerned with clearing himself.
Next a warning about forsy.
Response to hoya's mega-strat post where he claims seer at the end. Doesn't really add anything here.
Responding to Moocher's question about forsy seer claim victory.
Sparring with VarianceMinefield.
I agree with his last post that he doesn't have a ton of content, but there are more than a few players (myself included) that fall into that category. I didn't see any posts that were overtly wolfy, but other players such as Felix, as Telecontar mentioned during EOD yesterday, have provided more content with fewer posts. I'd like to see some more content from Supine, but I'm hesitant to wagon him as of this point.
Right I'm caught up now WEEEEEEEE, gotta go back to my other game.
01-06-2012
, 06:26 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:26 PM
Quote:
quick question while i read this thread, and try to make sense of this teacup vs Lucky arguement since both are talking at levels above my head.
does the wolf busser's extra votes have to come on the same person? like if the wolf busser gets 2 votes today can he split them or do they both have to be on the same player.
seems like if they have to come on the same person he would out himself sooner rather than if he could split it to hide suspicion..
--also while reading i believe a couple people questioned me about my read on themoocher. it was poorly worded i guess and easily confused. i was saying that The moocher was a village lean for me because he was so combative. the "as always" was in reference to the fact that a super wolf could fool me being a new player, not in reference to themoocher's wolf game as i have no idea about him as my experience with WW is mainly based in reading the SE game. just wanted to clear that up.
does the wolf busser's extra votes have to come on the same person? like if the wolf busser gets 2 votes today can he split them or do they both have to be on the same player.
seems like if they have to come on the same person he would out himself sooner rather than if he could split it to hide suspicion..
--also while reading i believe a couple people questioned me about my read on themoocher. it was poorly worded i guess and easily confused. i was saying that The moocher was a village lean for me because he was so combative. the "as always" was in reference to the fact that a super wolf could fool me being a new player, not in reference to themoocher's wolf game as i have no idea about him as my experience with WW is mainly based in reading the SE game. just wanted to clear that up.
Reading is hard
01-06-2012
, 06:28 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:28 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:30 PM
01-06-2012
, 06:30 PM