Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah
Day 1 according to the Mooch: (sorry about length, cliffs at the bottom)
184 First post, attacking Luckay for what he sees as contradictions talking about humility. Says we should all work as peers.
190 Me as villa, his first read of the game.
195 In response to Forsy talking about wolfing with VMF.
201 To Captain, who is talking about Luckay and Jim.
206 To sixfour in response to sixfour's explanation to chrja of his (sixfour's) early vote for Moocher.
207 In response to Captain asking questions about soah. He hasn't interacted with soah yet or mentioned any of his posts.
210 To Forsy, re: his reasoning for his Luckay attack.
211 To sixfour on the 'wagon challenge'.
213 To Captain again, gives him a villa lean. Also says he has a game strength as being hard to lynch early in either role.
225 More general game talk with Captain. Makes future conditional statement for his Captain villa lean.
252 Commenting to Felix about his use of the word 'Gabedar'.
253 Quotes one of Wizard's first posts, calls it wolfy.
258 Responding to Wizard saying his wolfy post was funny, lightly calling him a wolf.
289 Greeting vyk, answering a Supine question about Willi/Aksdal wolfing.
292 Answering a follow up question from Supine about Willi/Aksdal wolfing.
302 Asking Willi/Aksdal for clarification on the wording of a read that included himself and AKSpartan. Asking Forsy a question at the direction of Supine.
320 Soft pushes Hoya via a chrja post, despite never having mentioned Hoya in any previous post before this.
325 Now he addresses Hoya, addresses him for not mentioning his Luckay post, or commenting enough on other posts.
326 x-post fluff.
329 Addressing Hoya again, retracts his soft push and gives him a conditional villa lean.
346 Welcoming dryice and giving invisible advice.
355 Greeting Gad with HODOR.
382 Addressing Luckay after Luckay apologizes to Moocher (despite never having directed anything at Moocher), says it was nothing personal and all game-related.
400 Light response to AKSpartan suggesting he thinks this looks like Moocher's wolf game. Suggests support for nofear wagon despite never having mentioned or talked to nofear, sponging a Gad post that he agreed with. Says he's not feeling a sixfour or wizard (very conditionally) lynch.
403 Votes nofear, making a soft push joke.
410 Quoting Monkey giving Wizard a village lean with his thoughts: Super wolfy, doesn't want to see him lynched tonight, if he carries on he's going to be an easy mislynch (how does Moocher know he would be a mislynch?).
425 Fluff to vyk.
434 More fluffy discussion with vyk about D1s.
462 To Hoya over magic, strange coupling of sentences imo. Results in conditional magic villa lean?
484 First interaction with or mention of Jim all game, despite them being around at the same time. Talking with Jim re: Jim's concerns over Luckay. Jim has said he thinks Luckay is neither villager or wolf. Moocher echoes this for his read on Jim.
493 To Gad re: exchange with Hoya over magic earlier. Restates he doesn't think magic made that post as a wolf.
515 Fluff to Hoya
523 More wordplay with Gad and a heart for Gad's description of his wolf game.
533 To Jim after Jim votes crossnerd. Quotes cross opener.
534 To debo for giving soah a villa lean after soah points out inconsistencies in his posting.
539 To fanmail explaining he has not given soah a villa lean. Only second indirect reference to soah all game.
547 Further confirmation to fanmail that he has in no way given soah a villa lean.
551 Light hearted response to Jim saying cross, telc, debo, gad, mooch has some wolves. Jim later responds with fluff.
559 Fluff to fanmail about Hoya.
563 To Jim for saying he's been fluffy and not his usually villagery self. +fluff. Jim later responds with even more fluff.
571 Responding to me asking about his other games.
580 More fluff to Jim.
584 Asking mac why monte is a good lynch if he's a strong villager when he posts.
607 In response to debo saying how he didn't like moocher, jim and fanmail jumping soah questioning him. Says he has no intention of voting debo until he gives him cause, expresses no lean on debo.
614 Fluff joke to AKSpartan over a x-post.
617 To debo after debo asks how he turtled to soah. Asks him to do something villagery, but still doesn't give him a wolf lean. debo later seems surprised almost that moocher doesn't just lean him wolf.
648 Harsh response to debo when debo continues to question the previous situation. Weirdly calls him villa? This is a strangely worded post and worth re-reading carefully in context of the situation.
650 Correction of typo that would be goat if moocher flips wolf.
684 First actual reads list of the game in response to Gad. Interesting little sequence to click through to origin. List is very hedgy imo. Actually gives AKSpartan a villa lean though. List essential reading.
694 Responds to debo asking him not to call him kid, by calling him kid.
737 A strange follow up to debo where he retroactively gives him a strong villa lean.
829 Quotes Evene voting AKSpartan and agrees with it but says he doesn't want to vote him on that alone (strange post after listing AKSpartan as his #3 villager in response to Gad earlier).
846 Response to AKSpartan for being cocky.
883 Is displeased as wagons. Doesn't like cakewalk, has never mentioned cakewalk. Says AKS/evene/JD/Monkey wagons aren't going to go in his opinion, wording implies he would support them? Hedges on the wagon he's on. Soft pushes Jim. Suggests mac wagon. (I apologize moocher, not until thorough re-read after fast EOD did I realize this sequence). Justifies mac wagon by his wolfy post, which I agree with, and also him saying not to lynch cross.
904 Adds to previous post a thought about sixfour's vote on him and a defense of him based on Wizard pushing him. More defense of a future lynch candidate.
918 Soft pushes Jim again and now me, click through for interaction. He's never even mentioned Felix so why does he give a crap?
928 I tell him he can think what he likes and this is his response. Another friendly soft push.
924 I tell him I don't care and vote mac. He states mac is a soul read wolf for him.
957 Declares his tinfoil fantasy of cross/jim/mac/me wolf team.
982 In response to soah wagoning magic, he gets on mac with me.
995 In response to me asking if he's genuinely suspicious of Jim.
1008 Says cakewalk lynch is horrid (never expressed a read on or talked about cakewalk), pushes mac. Never mentions KruZe ever. (cakewalk/KruZe wagons 6-6, mac 3).
1017 Revotes mac for the counter, 7.59
CLIFFS:
The reads of Mooch
Villa leans
noah (which he hedged on later and soft pushes me)
captain
debo (accidentally gives him a villa lean in annoyance after soft pushing him?)
akspartan (after not really talking about him much)
repeatedly defends a magic gazz lynch without ever calling him villa (then actually goes on to soft push him d2)
hoya soft pushes him, then soft villa lean later
'Shady'
supine
jim
Wolves
nofear (votes him while repeatedly doubting wagon)
wizard
Everyone has the Moocher clear. So I am ready to be laughed at.
Reasons you shouldn't be clearing The Moocher: 1) His post count. He posts a lot as a wolf. Check out the santa game. 2) His tone. He has awesome tone as a wolf. Check out the santa game! He was essentially ONLY caught by POE after Jim's GOAT seering. Nothing else. Nothing he did or said. People had him as a villager almost all game until there were far fewer people. 3) Aggression. A number of people have cited his aggression as something hard for a wolf. Moocher is super smart, like super smart. I believe he could easily be this aggressive as a wolf.
Reasons you should find to clear The Moocher or not: content and actions. When I read his day one, his content is a mixture of fluff, non-committal and hedging reads, and commentating/sponging/agreement/discussion on the work of others. He doesn't re-read anyone, he doesn't make a case, he only produces a list with multiple reads after a strange sequence with Captain and Gad, and that list has almost zero firm reads. He has his vote for a large portion of the day on someone he didn't say a word about before the vote, and whilst his vote was there, repeatedly expressed his distaste and doubt over the wagon.
In another post, he again expresses doubt over a nofear wagon, and his desire for a mac wagon but doesn't vote him! Doesn't start the wagon. I dropped a vote on mac later and he then votes him. If you don't know whether the wagon you are on is a good one and you want to start a different one, why not switch?
Other random things: soah. He makes a post to someone else about soah being his idol and yet never once all day seeks interaction with soah or attempts to make a read on him other than to deny multiple times that he'd given him a villager lean when that was mistakenly assumed. Sun is another one of his idols and in Jim's vanilla game when he was a villager, he seeks out interactions with Sun on purpose.
Shortly after he makes his reads list, where he has AKSPartan as his surprise number 3 villager, Evene tunnels on AKSpartan and votes him. Moocher quotes this vote and sounds pretty encouraging of it, but states that that isn't enough alone for Moocher to vote him. Seems like a very strange response to someone voting your number 3 villager. I would have asked why.
What is strange about mooch's reads when he gives them is that he doesn't say 'I think x, y, z probably villagers (here's why etc), he says things like 'I don't think he does x as wolf' and conditions a lot of his villa lean statements with 'if you are a wolf/similar'. Almost all of any villa leans he gives are so easily retractable at will.
When he makes his first vote of the game, nofear, he makes a joke about soft pushing after making a post saying he wouldn't mind seeing a nofear wagon/lynch. This shows he's aware of soft pushing and doesn't want to be accused of it?
I don't know why Moocher is so clear. No-one is talking about him. People have prodded Captain repeatedly and Moocher has done nowhere near as much villaging.
Your 'Reasons you should find to clear The Moocher or not:' don't seem to contain
any reasons to clear me, I don't think you've given me a single villa point for any of the posts that you've provided links for, including the case you made on me today, which I will get to at the end of this post.
I'm going to answer the points you raise as I go along. My interaction with Gad about providing lists is from a conversation we had in the Santa game, Gad knows I don't like doing top-3 w/v lists but we have a tacit understanding that I'll probably provide such lists to people that I feel are villagers who are contributing and that I will always provide a list like that if
he asks.
As for not interacting with Soah, he had work to do and didn't need me tugging at his robes. I was happy to sit back and try and follow what he did, see how he interacts and makes reads and so on. I've read a lot of his games but don't see the value on giving him a villa or wolf lean, he's Soah, he can do what he wants.
As for you thinking I should have interacted with my idol Soah, because I interacted with my idol Sun Tzu in a previous game, that game was my first ever, it was vanilla, I randed seer and peeked Sun wolf, the whole dynamic was very different and as you were villaging in this game with me, I'm surprised you didn't mention this yourself but you're determined that every interaction and post of mine can be interpreted as something wolfy, yet you point out here:
'His tone. He has awesome tone as a wolf. Check out the santa game! He was essentially ONLY caught by POE after Jim's GOAT seering. Nothing else. Nothing he did or said.'
If you believe that to be true then why is everything I'm doing and saying in this game wolfy, in your eyes? If you go back through the Santa game, knowing I'm a wolf, you can obviously kid yourself that I would only make those posts as a wolf, because I did, but I was villaging pretty hard in that game which is why I got so clear. Your re-read on me in this game is based on the assumption, the
certainty, that I'm a wolf. Yet I'm clearly not using the same tone, right? No-one was clearing me d1, other than on 'aggression', so if I'm a wolf here, I'm not the same wolf I was in the Santa game. I was a very amiable wolf in Santa, my game here isn't at all similar.
The whole 'soft-pushing' thing, I don't think there is a consensus opinion on what a soft push is? Also, is a soft-push something that's always thought of as wolfy? Because I think it's a way to describe someone as wolfy, you could say 'here moocher suggests something' or 'moocher disagrees with this' but your case is full of places where I'm soft-pushing someone, including yourself, but I can't tell you it categorically
isn't whatever a soft-push
is, I can only say that I wasn't deliberately soft-pushing you or anyone else.
For me it's a grey area but it may not be a grey area for others, it's something that I struggle with. If I'm alone in that struggle then there must be a consensus agreement on what soft-pushing is, if I'm not alone in that struggle I hope you, and others, can see where I'm coming from.
Accusing
myself of soft-pushing shows what I think soft-pushing is, this is how it went down:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moocher
For tonight's wagons I wouldn't mind seeing nofear rolling, Gad pointed out a post of his earlier and said he didn't like any of it and I agree.
sixfour and wizard are currently being mooted and I'm not really feeling those lynches, however wizard is going to get himself lynched pretty soon if he keeps up his current antics.
3 minutes later after I re-read my post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moocher
oh and nofear rofl, lets not make my push toooooo soft right?
I had just called for a nofear wagon whilst saying that I didn't like the sixfour/wizard wagons, and then I didn't even vote for nofear. What made me feel like my post was particularly sketchy was that I had yet to make my first vote, yet I was cheer-leading for a particular wagon. I feel it's less sketchy to call for another wagon when I'm already on one, but I think I've made that condition in my own head and don't think I've seen anyone else say that.
Still, me pushing for a nofear wagon, without voting for him, when I wasn't already voting for someone else, is that made me laugh at my own 'soft-pushing' because it looks sketchy to me, and a 'soft-push' is under my list of 'things that wolves do', which may be another misconception of mine.
There are inaccuracies in some of your statements, 'Never mentions KruZe ever.' jumped out at me because I know I called him 'a perennial d1 lynch' at some point near d1 EOD. Also, in the above quote where I call for the nofear wagon, I say I don't like the wizard wagon yet you have him listed as one of my wolves. I didn't think he was a wolf but god damn he was wolfy.
There are other things that I disagree with but our main sticking point comes from the fact that you really think I'm a wolf so you obviously haven't felt the need to give me any credit, anywhere, for doing work for the village. I think that whilst you were putting your case together, and also because of our argument, that you've lost some objectivity in how you read me.
This is what makes me think you're still a villager, because if you were a wolf you'd be more wishy-washy. Our interactions are what made you lose that objectivity I believe and that's on me a lot more than it is you. I hope we can work on that as this game progresses, because if we go very deep in this game together we need to start building some bridges now.
I've tried to reply to a lot of your points in the interests of building those bridges, I could have chosen to only use the following in my defense and I think it would have been enough:
If you'd made this argument at 7:27pm on d1 you might have got me lynched, you were apparently hoping to get me lynched last night. From the top and bottom of your case:
'Everyone has the Moocher clear.'
'I don't know why Moocher is so clear. No-one is talking about him.'
This makes no logical sense as they can't both be true, if everyone has me clear it can't be based on no-one ever talking about me. When I made my final post yesterday I think I had over 100 posts more than the 2nd-place poster, I think everyone has given an opinion/lean on me and at the time of posting your case, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone in the game that hadn't talked about me.
As for your case on me today:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah
CLIFFS:
Independent of how heated it got, I think there are some interesting points of note. My case comes before our argument not during or because of it.
The bolded part, your case on me yesterday (d3) was based on my d1, your case on me today is based on my d1 and my actions before our argument, which means your d2/d3 re-read of me is based on a few posts with VMF early on d2 whilst the rest of what I've done, which is the work that has in your words, made 'everyone' think I'm clear, can be summed up like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah
Rolling update from yesterday through where we're at
Lots of hedging and soft pushing. Not very many firm reads. Pattern of friendly, jokey conversation with people who aren't pushing him and defensive reactions when people do. A fair amount of conversational fluff and far more commentary on the work of others than work from scratch himself.
So in summation, I think your case on me has a fundamental flaw based on the fact that you say everyone is clearing me but not talking about me, that isn't true and couldn't logically be true.
You think I'm a wolf and you want me lynched. Your case on me is based on a part of the game where almost nobody was saying I was villa, except for those who thought I couldn't be this aggressive as a wolf, and I disagree with the people that said that.
So you've taken the part of the game where I've already admitted I wasn't worried about clearing myself or appearing like a villager* and glossed over all the villaging I did d2 and especially d3 and all the posts that people have been clearing me for, in a matter of <50 words.
*in response to JD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Moocher
I spent my first 5 games pretending to be a villager and I was particularly earnest in my first couple of games. This game I'm not worried about clearing myself, less self-conscious, and my actions are a caricature of myself and I'm completely comfortable with that.
And before I finally, finally press submit on this leviathan, I'm happy to get into some back-and-forth with you about my post here, and with others, but this post has taken me at least 2 hours since I woke up and there are other things I want to look at and comment on.
I'm also really, really disappointed that the village vigs don't seem to be working and that disappointment is feeling a lot like despair right now. So, I'll be around and we can talk things over (MCW amirite?) but if I'm not responding to you, or others, directly about the case on me then I'm hoping I can be cut some slack here, especially by you, because I'm really trying to reach out to you here but if I'm going to do work in other areas today I need to mentally disentangle myself from our interaction for a couple of hours at least.
I think we've at least come to an understanding on our argument over the Mac issue and it's a positive, lets try and make some more positives later today.
In a final hope to convince you, at some point during this game you said to someone, maybe chrja:
'I promise you I'm a villager'
I straight-up cleared you on the strength of that and any time I've doubted you, which has been often as I've read your case on me, I've reminded myself of that promise.
I made a similar, true, promise in my first couple of games and I'm going to use it now again, although it's the last time that anyone should ever take this statement from me at face value.
Noah, I promise you that I'm a villager.
I'm deserving of (and enjoy) someone like Gad putting me in his 'sneaky-bastard' category this game but if I was going to play you with that line, and I never would, but if you think I'm capable of that sort of lie, to you, then you've got to know I'd run that game on you at a f3/f5/f7 when everything was at stake, not now when the village have such a small shot at winning. It would be an unconscionably malicious lie and I hope you know I'm not a malicious person.
Also, if you're a wolf here, no-one will be more delighted for you than me, for real.
Do you think he's >rand wolf?
