How much money went into this? To fall flat. A tie on a voice vote isnt a victory or progress to build on. And not one dime to put people to actually getting together and working together? Take the 2 million or so spent on lobbyists and donations, and put it into the players getting organized. You act like the PPA is a group of martyrs fighting selflessly. I think of it as a bunch of lobbysists with paychecks and no expectations. You have money and information I don't. If you can't give the money, have the PPA pledge to give out membership info so if a real group comes out of this, they can recruit easier.

Answer one question honestly please. Do you think the PPA can "succeed" without an active membership? Lets not bandy words, the membership is inactive and uninvolved.

Answer that, then if you say No, tell me how you get the membership involved? Can't you see the enthusiasm and support from people who would give a few hours a week with NOWHERE to go. We cant all go to DC. But we can all be connected. If the PPA can't see that its shutting out willing, motivated people by having no where to go and nothing to do in concert, then we really do need to move on and form something new.

is who's giving money to the PPA public info? I'd assume if it's an official PAC, then it would be, but I don't know.

Anyone know?

Legislurker, your frustration is obvious. Although I don't agree with some of your conclusions, you do make a good point here about the PPA needing to be more successful in its grassroots efforts.

Engineer, I personally don't wish to belittle the efforts of the PPA, but I did say the other day that they, and all of us, need to be better. This is a highly important area for poker players, and the PPA as a leader and focal point for the players, to be better.

Right now the PPA could be taking advantage of this wave of outrage to be getting new people involved. I've seen many posters in this section, in the last 48 hours, that I've never seen before, and they all seem to be pretty fired up. If I were the PPA, I'd start a thread, that says basically, "If you've had enough, post here with your state in the body of the message, and a state rep will PM you to get you further involved in the grass roots effort." So my post in that thread would simply say "Georgia", and thats it. The state rep looks in that thread, PM's me and we take it from there.

Eventually, if the PPA does nothing, and ignores this wave of outrage, it will pass, and the potential benefit from this, just like Jerry Yang, will pass. Engineer, I know I don't have to tell you that we need to attack from as many positions as possible, but Legislurker does have a point that the grassroots needs to better.

I received a PM from 2+2 last time I tried something like that. PPA isn't allowed to "advertise" on the 2+2 forums. Info like this in on the PPA site, though.

It's on opensecrets.org, at http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/cli...ance&year=2008

The IGC info is at http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/cli...ncil&year=2008

I figured that might be part of the issue, but its good to get the problem out there for discussion.

Although I can see Mason's viewpoint, this is his board, and he has issues with the PPA, this is where the "fish" are. Not "fish" in the poker sense, but this is where the action is, the traffic, etc. Its very important that when you're trying to accomplish something, that you "fish where the fish are."

So here's the pro's and con's:

Mason Malmuth: Your concerns are understandable, and need to be addressed/compromised etc. But not allowing the main group that we have for legislative change in Washington, to semi-openly recruit and communicate where many of their constituents choose to gather, is hurting the effort to change this legislation. If poker expands (through legislative change), your business gets better, and you personally enjoy more financial success, but if it collapses due to a lack of political efforts, then the result there is obvious also. You are one of the select people who does have an obvious financial stake in the success of the their efforts.

PPA: The items that you're fighting for should be the only topic of conversation in regards to your organization. These other issues need to be resolved so that people like Mason, and other posters on here will come on board 100%. You work in Washington, so compromise is nothing new, but here we have a situation where you could turn a negative, the defeat of HR 5767, into a huge win with the surge in interest of grassroots efforts. These other issues are blunting those efforts in a very real and identifiable way here. FoF doesn't fight us with one hand tied behind their back, or cut off from the majority of their constituents, so why should you? No one is going to get everything they want here, but not having Mason on board, and being restricted to the degree that you are on this board, is hurting you badly. You need to acknowledge that.

Its obvious in this example that other unneeded issues are hampering an important exercise that should be rather easy.

In my opinion the PPA should be restricted from a lot of the board, but having more freedom in the legislation section only, would be huge for them.

What I saw on there was where they spent their money, not where it came from. Is a list of their funding sources on their somewhere too?

I think the anger at the PPA is misdirected

It's lazy and apathetic poker players who should be blamed for these failures. If they had the same drive and passion for this issue as the other side did POKER WOULD BE COMPLETELY LEGAL RIGHT NOW

You guys keep rambling on about the PPA not gettign to the grassroots, well that's bass ackwards, you cannot "create" grassroots you can only harvest it. The PPA cannot force people to make the phone calls and get involved

I honestly believe the only way online poker will get a win is if ALL the poker sites stop serving Americans and the DOJ arrests a few pros for aiding and abetting, but as long as most players can get online and still play they wont give a crap about fighting for this cause or put forth the effort needed.

Is the PPA perfect? no....can they do a better job? definitely

However everyone needs to realize the real failure here is the lack of support needed from the millions of online poker players in the USA that this effects.

well put joeker. I'm sure NRA members spend a lot of time and energy arguing over whether or not their board constitutes the interests of the gun owners over gun manufacturers and distributors. I'm sure it would be likely that the biggest firearm discussion forum wouldn't officially support the NRA because the owners of the forum saw possible issues with the so called true agenda of the NRA.

lol! ****ing poker players... any surprise politicians haven't and don't take our rights seriously, and are more than willing to throw us under the bus.

Pretty much sums it up IMHO. Its not the PPA thats at fault, its the Poker Players. Which is not to say the PPA is perfect, or that its wrong to criticize the PPA. But Poker Players are fools if they expect the PPA to win this fight for them; the PPA exists as a mechanism for players to get involved in the fight, but few actually do ....

Recent example: the PPA jumped up to the plate and came out swinging in Massachusetts. They e-mailed all the Mass members to get letters going, they hired an in-state lobbyist, the issued press releases, and they organized a well publicized rally in front of the state house. Of the over 20,000 Mass PPA members, less than 100 showed up for the rally ....

Better example: I have been a PPA member since November 2006. For the first few months I did what most of you do, I paid the dues, spread the word when given the opportunity, and wrote letters when (mostly TE) suggested them. In the middle of 2007, it occurred to me that the PPA should get more involved in the Courts, as opposed to just the legislature. I contacted the PPA brass, wrote up my idea, suggested the method of implementation, and offered to run the thing for only expenses. The result was the Litigation Support Network, which I hope most see as a valuable member asset. It will also someday be at the forefront (soon I hope) of successful poker litigation.

Best example: TheEngineer - do I need to review all that he has done and is doing?

The point here is not to toot my own or anyone else's horn; the point is that many of you do indeed have legitimate criticisms and good ideas - but writing good posts on 2+2 is not by itself going to get us anywhere. Follow up your posts with an action plan and present it over at the PPA website!

In short, like any political movement, it is only going to succeed if its members are pushing the cause. It will not succeed if you continue to act on the belief that its "leaders" can do anything by themselves.

Skallagrim

I have bad news for you. We'll fall flat more than once. We're against a real opponent, if you haven't noticed. While I disagree with him on his attitude regarding this, Hollabolla is correct in stating that we're in a tough fight against a tenacious opponent. That's why we look so foolish spending most of our time infighting.

As for grassroots, I've been BEGGING people to get involved for two years now. Certainly you don't think I don't think it's important. I do. However, I don't believe PPA can force poker players to care. Nor does it occur to me at all that I should be angry at PPA for their efforts.

I'm sorry to say I haven't seen this enthusiasm you mentioned. My inbox is in no danger of filling with people wondering what they can do to help. Right how there is one such PM in my inbox. Even you said you weren't going to participate.

And, LOL at saying PPA is somehow shutting anyone out. Anyone doing anything to help poker can get help from the PPA. Every state has a volunteer state director as well. As for your example, where is the grassroots sports betting player organization, or the online casino gaming grassroots group? They don't have a PPA "shutting them out". If you find this "real group" you mention, please let me know -- PPA will be thrilled to work with such a group.

Finally, John Pappas and Al D'Amato are the only registered lobbyists employed by PPA. The others lobbyists that represent us work for other companies. This prevents issues like the one you mentioned of accountability for results.

Money comes primarily from members and from the IGC.

I view the vote on HR 5767 a failure of the banking lobby much more than a failure of the PPA. I can imagine that the banking lobbyists are hearing from their banking industry clients much more vociferously than the comments in this forum. I bet that a few Republican Congressman and the Party itself will see a drop in political donations over this vote and have been told so. This tells me that the fight in Congress for legalized online gambling or online poker is near hopeless in the short term and will take 3-5 years at least to show any results.
IMO some type of litigation over the legality of online poker is needed. But I don't know how to start it without some type of enforcement effort by the DOJ against some entity, solely involved in online poker, which, unlike Epassporte, is willing to litigate.

Sorry Legislurker, but LOL. You really think we'd get far with the FoF/FRC lobbyists, the NFL lobbyists, some of the domestic gaming industry, state lotteries, the letters from all the churches, and the lobbying from Bachus, Goodlatte, and Kyl all against us without lobbyists bringing our viewpoint directly to Congress? Last time we tried that we lost HR 4411 317-93 (even that required lobbyists to help get a somewhat improved definition of "bet or wager" -- a distinciton we were unable to maintain in the final version). The time before we lost in the Senate 90-10. The bottom line is that Congress didn't believe Americans wanted this to be legal, and demonstrations by 80 people are unlikely to change that.

The work on this bill by PPA was admirable. They brought banks -- a group with the ear of the GOP -- and many small government (i.e., traditionally Republican) groups on board to form a bipartisan coalition. We did our part by writing over 30,000 letters and in the two months prior and by making the phone calls to Congress prior to the hearing. We got burned when Bachus twisted arms at the last minute, promising to use his power as the Committee Ranking Member to make their lives on the committee miserable. It's unfortunate, but these things happen. What we need to do is keep fighting back.

Thanks Skall!

First of all, the failure of HR 5767 isn't proof that PPA could have done better. For example, if you fought Mike Tyson in his short-lived prime and lost, would it be fair to say you didn't fight him hard enough, or didn't train enough? Maybe the opposition was just very tough. Well, we had real opposition, and we'll continue to.

I believe we all need to work together to fight for our rights. Infighting is nonproductive, yet that's most of what goes on here. Again, I obviously believe grassroots can be strong, but I concur with Skallagrim....grassroots aren't built from the top-down. PPA will help anyone doing this. They gave me a blog as soon as I asked for one. Anyone who wants to volunteer can just go to www.pokerplayersalliance.org/volunteer .

As for Jerry Yang, I'm glad he wants to help us out. That's awesome. He'll help out a lot. I've let Pappas know that he should reach out to him. However, I don't see why that's this huge failure that people here say it is. We have about 10 pros who regularly pitch in for us. They meet with Congressmen all the time. They fly to D.C. and to protests in Washington state (you know, the ones that attract 50 players, even with Howard Lederer and Andy Bloch there). They film videos, too.

And, if anyone here thinks Jerry Yang can change FoF's mind on this, I'm sorry to tell you it doesn't work that way. Ask Legislurker. He knows these people as well as I do. They'll just assume he's confused, and they won't change their mind. For example, Obama's a Christian. Has that impressed FoF? Sorry, but these people are close-minded and are proud of it. Rigidity = faithfulness to these people.

TE, I think you misunderstand me here. My arguement was quite simple. We lost a vote, and we have to be better in order to win the next time. No one disputes the fact the PPA put in a lot of work here, and that they are to be applauded for that. But when you lose, you need to improve, and thats my point. The rest of the discussion should then progress to "how to improve". No one questioned the lobbyists that were contracted, their choice of partners in building a coalition, or the amount of time spent. The focus has been in how do we build the grassroots, ie, get the average player involved. Since the average player doesn't even care at this point, we all share some blame there.

The road to improvement always involves CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, introspection, and good honest evaluation of why you failed. I think the concensus here is that the grass roots needs to be stronger, and the average player needs to do more. People are looking for a coordination of those efforts, and hence, a reasonable expectation that they are not alone here and have a chance at being successful. If the PPA is not the group to head this, then who? I can't even think of another one. Why re-invent the wheel and start from scratch with a new group? Why splinter our efforts? These are the reasons that the PPA's name keeps coming up here. We have lots of raw energy now as a result of the tactics used to defeat HR 5767 and a leadership void. I think the PPA is only one with an existing infrastructure capable of utilizing that energy before its gone.

The fact that people are looking to the PPA for leadership and help is not criticism, its actually a good sign of how far things have come.

QFT.

I'm more worried about FoF's agenda myself.

I agree 100% that we all need to figure out what steps need to be taken to win the next vote. There's no dispute there, of course.

Also, I'm probably the biggest proponent of grassroots here. I want it to succeed, and I think the PPA is the logical umbrella under which to organize. PPA has been working on this since Pappas took over the helm. However, it doesn't work if people aren't volunteering. Everyone here should have already gone to www.pokerplayersalliance.org/volunteer and signed up. Also, everyone here should check out the PPA website regularly for information.

Thanks for the link, I just signed up. Anyone else sign up?

Hollaballa, you should go sign up for 1-2 hours a week, immediately. View it as a few "Hail Marys" at confessional for jinxing us on the HR 5767 vote (j/k).

If this poker movement ever picks up any real steam it is going to be viewed as a threat to the poker sites you guys play at every day. Because if poker is ever legalized and regulated in the USA, the sites you play at run the risk of losing all their business.

So do you think that maybe the sites you play at every day and support could actually be against any kind of momentum gained by the PPA? Do you think your favorite offshore poker site is maybe celebrating this defeat? I'm not saying they are but it seems logical to think that it could be the case. Or maybe they wanted this one anti-UIGEA legislation to win but nothing further. To make their processing easier.

So if the goal of the PPA and all you guys here is legalization in the USA, then your ultimate goals are at odds of the goals of the offshores.

If that is the case then the only way to ever get it legalized in the US is to quit playing at the sites you play at every day because they are at odds with the PPA. And you know good and well Americans arent going to quit playing poker at their favorite offshore in order to "maybe have it legalized in the USA in 10 years".

From the PPA website "The PPA’s mission is to establish favorable laws that provide poker players with a secure, safe and regulated place to play".

The only way to achieve the above is to have legal, regulated poker sites run from inside the USA. This would probably mean the end of the offshores.

PokerStars and Full Tilt strongly support PPA's efforts. They also support efforts at making this clearly legal.

Skall, this is the first thing that came to mind. The number who showed up actually exceeded what I expected when I drove in that day (I had really low expectations). 500 to 1,000 would have great and what we should be doing, but I know better right now.

That being said, the phone call/e-mail campaign I know was a HUGE SUCCESS, we just need to take the next step. Everything was in place, the communication was good, plenty of advanced warning, etc., we really had no excuse to only put in an ok showing there. I can't think of anything else they could have done, can anyone?

What really bothered/confused me though in talking with people is the ones who take the time to do something are by and large the very small stakes players who only play occasionally, strictly for fun. There are many who make very good money playing poker who were nowhere to be found. Why is this, they have the most to lose?

Thank you Randy (the Mass. PPA rep) and family, that was an incredible effort you and the team put in. Some may not like some of the board members, but many volunteer their time and work to the point of exhaustion to help the cause. The day of the hearing, Randy was there early in the morning, and didn't leave until well after supper time, if not around midnight.

Uglyowl, after I made my post (but too late to edit it) I realized exactly the point you are making: the efforts of those who did show up, yourself, and PPA state director Randy C., were absolutely great. Same to all who wrote letters.

But there could have neen so much more.

Skallagrim