Erm, this may be a totally bone question, but how would it be illegal to have your own program on your own computer?

That's not the same as a licenced operator offering this functionality as part of their software. I thought this legislation was about regulating the operators, not the players.

And it doesn't contravene Stars' T+Cs; programs such as TableNinja already did this for automatically buying in to SNGs (I don't really know much about what it did for cash games, I was never a grinder in those at any level)

Sorry but automation is against the Ts & Cs, there is no way Stars could approve s/w to undermine the regulators rules. They would be obliged to ban it. Similar examples of semi-automation matter not, if you have a product to break the regulator's rules it's going to be outside the Ts and Cs.

illegal was a bad choice of word, especially here, Not illegal just banned.

so, by the looks of it, i can still probably grind mtts on 888, party, stars and ftp?

in other words, not too much has changed for me apart from the fact i am much better protected and in return i take a very small rakeback hit. id call that a win.

True, but the change is not finished. The key question now is grey markets and whether these big boys can still operate there (short answer, Russia, Aus, SA no others, maybe)

I wouldn't call it that necessarily. If my maths/understanding is right:

We pay $1 rake to the site and if we are supernova for example, we get ~35c back

They pay 15% tax on the remaining 65c = ~10c

We pay half of that, so 5c.

If we lose 5c of our 35c, thats a seventh. I wouldn't call it very small for a nova making say $6k a year that's like $850 which is a sizeable chunk.

Does this seem a decent approximation to you guys based on what we've been told:

VIP Club rewards will be unaffected for the remainder of 2014 but will be reduced slightly for 2015 compared to PokerStars.com, by an amount equal to roughly half of the amount of the UK tax.

Elsewhere in this thread it's been stated they pay tax on the revenue they get from us AFTER rakeback, presume this is correct

Edit: My overall conclusion is that while I would have preferred it to stay as it was, in a realistic world where poker is being regulated all over the place, what they're doing here is pretty good. I have no complaints. For the MTT guys especially the biggest loss will probably be losing winamax and stars.fr, if that is the case

true, but most multi site mid stakes grinders hit goldstar and thats about it, so your amount of $850 doesnt apply; VIP rewards just arent a major consideration for me.

hyper grinders and the like will take a fair hit though

Wil they though? You have aplied a flate rate cost. For commercial reasons Stars could tweak that, they may make the top end equivalent to .com after all it is few people, sets a goal and appeases the elite Stars players who live in the UK for their own tax reasons.

good point richas, and id just like to say thanks for all the work you put in so lazy guys like me can come into to these threads and see the situation at a glance

+ 1 richas good work! Do u think I should just withdraw from winamax before the 1st October if they refuse to clarify the situation as it's clear they havnt applied for the appropriate licence so playing after the deadline may be a risk?has 888 got the licence,how do u think they will charge uk players, through rakeback as well?

There is already software to top up to whatever you wish. Thats how shortstackers stay at their optimal stack size.

Ive emailed them mulitiple times and sent winamaxdave messages here but they are being really vague and wont give a clear response. They're clearly dodging something. So, ive taken my roll off and will wait to see what October brings.

winamax aren't 'dodging' anything, as everyone has said, the support guys simply aren't across what's happening. there isn't going to be any risk by leaving your funds in there a while longer, but yeah, it's 99% gone unless this appeal next week changes things (if that's even possible).

anyway, stars.fr is gone :

I know we've a thread on the .com email that went out yesterday but just got this through, seems like .FR will be unusable for UK players... Meh!

Due to new regulations, all gaming services available to players in the UK must be licensed in the UK.

From 00:01 BST on October 1, playing on the PokerStars.fr site , or any other licence except PokerStars UK, will no longer be possible within the UK. UK-based players using the .FR client will need to cashout their funds in the usual way - there is no risk for you to lose your funds, but any balance on the .FR client must be withdrawn to your registered bank account.

From the 1st of October, assets including play money balances, Real Money tickets, T-Money, VIP Status and FPPs will be migrated from your .FR account to your .UK account by contacting support@pokerstars.fr with your PokerStars UK User ID. Pending bonuses will be re-credited if possible, or paid out on a pro rata basis. Your PokerStars.fr VIP status will also be applied if it is an upgrade.

Make sure you claim any earned VIP Stellar Rewards and Milestone Cash Credits from the VIP Store in the PokerStars.fr client prior to 00:01 BST on October 1. Additionally we will provide credits to many players for partial progress toward their next Stellar Reward or Milestone Cash Credit. All credits will be made by October 3 and will be accompanied by an email to the credited player.

If you have a PokerStars .COM account, you will also be required to move it to PokerStars UK. The process will be quick and straightforward, and you’ll be automatically prompted to do so when you log-in after September 30. Players using PokerStars Mobile will need to download the new UK-specific apps from the App Store or PokerStars Mobile site.

The PokerStars UK site will continue to share all games and player pools with the PokerStars.com site. Due to UK regulations, the auto rebuy feature will not be available on the UK site for either cash games or tournaments. All other software features and game experiences will remain the same.

Your money is safe, they have clarified, just not to their own staff! If you like the site stay for the last few days, call it a holiday.

888 have applied so are staying in the UK. Not sure how they reward or what the change would be.

I guess you have a few days to shop around for your new site.

Next week is not going to lead to a sudden change. The UK courts will not say that the UK regulating UK players is illegal when parliament voted for it without a single MP opposing it. Not going to happen.

Gib is doing it to exhaust the UK legal options before going to the European Court. Frankly they will lose there anyway , the ECJ is clear tha countries can legislate for social protection and the new law does impose significant new protections in areas like self exclusion, segregation of player funds, not having sites operating in illegal markets and crucially for Slot games and the like a clear published RTP that the sites need to show is advertised correctly.

Gib has no hope, they are fighting because it is such a huge (15%) part of their economy.

thx for the additional details

richas, obviously for now we take a hit with .fr etc. is there anything in the new legislation that might pave the way for merging in the future with .eu, .fr?

Pretty terrible news about stars.Fr.

Assuming i moved to ireland tomorrow i should be able to start playing on Fr again and go back to playing on the normal pokerstars.com instead of pokerstars.uk?

I am from N.Ireland but hold an Irish passport, assuming I go and open an Irish bank acc could I continue to play? Would I need to open a new account or just update my old one with the new details?

Is there a Rep from Stars I can PM with these questions?

You won't get a new account.

Your nationality on your passport is largely irrelevant; it's only needed to prove your identity. But your bank account details will need to match your actual address. So, you would actually need to move to the ROI, and prove your new address.

Best bet for clarification would be to email stars: support@pokerstars.com

yes imo but haven't confirmed with stars yet

i don't think the bank account matters. it's about the residency imo.

but yeah email stars. i have about my situation (already living in a diff country but bank account is uk) and will report back.

Nothing in the UK rules to stop a remerging of the French player pool. Some seem to like the fishiness of the segregated French pool despite the higher rake but if the French were to change it would be to the UK type system of POC tax and then the seperate French fishpool comes back in to the .com player pool, like the .uk site.

Legal action at the ECJ level might work, if they ruled that dual tax was an infringement of trade but that would cost, take a long time and annoy the French government when in practice Stars would want them to move to the UK system. The Gib case against POC tax is against Stars interest so maybe an opposite bit of suing in favour of POC and against the French would make sense but given the long delays and high costs involved its hard to see Stars caring enough, they still have a strong UK offer and access to the French market.

what happens with UK players accounts on merge revolution etc. do we have to withdraw money from them before Oct 1st or do we risk it getting seized if we withdraw after that date.

confirmed, all good