Actually the fallacy you're committing here has a name - it's called "special pleading", otherwise known as a double standard, and somewhat ironically, it's used by lots of groups of people to justify applying different rules for themselves than for others. You can't understand menopause if you're not a woman. You can't understand because you're too young. You can't understand because you're too old. You can't understand because you're too white, too black, not white enough, not black enough...

Or ... you can't understand because you're not gay.

And don't think for a moment that I'm "causally waving away" these differences.

Do I know what it's like personally to be told, "no you can't marry that person no matter how much you want to because you're gay"? No, of course I don't. But I know it's unfair. I know why it's unfair. And I know what unfair feels like.

Do I know what it's like personally to be given dirty looks, to have people instantly hate me and even threaten me for holding my lover's hand in public? No, of course I don't. But I was something of a flamboyant nerd growing up. I know what it's like to personally be given dirty looks and be hated and even threatened for doing something that has absolutely zero impact on the "offended person", and I know what it feels like to have to suppress something you want to express to avoid the threats. I know what it's like to have to learn to recognize possible kindred spirits from behind a camouflage, and to only be able to "come out" in safe locations.

Do I know what it's like to be ostracized, scolded, judged, patronized and otherwise be belittled by my loved ones for choosing to be gay? No, of course not. But I am an atheist, and my father was a Lutheran Pastor up until his passing. And I'm not an angry atheist declaring there's no god because I'm mad at him. I have no more choice in my inability to believe. I simply cannot believe in the concept, no matter how hard I've tried, any more than you can choose to change your gender preference or choose to feel more like the gender of your chromosomes should. Shall we have the conversation about how that feels? Being the only atheist in a family of devout believers? In an office full of them?

It's a sad truth that some of the worst bigots are the victims of bigotry. There are Jews that will forever hate anyone of German descent, just because they're German. (Never mind that their ancestors moved here in 1900). There are blacks that will forever hate anyone who's white. (Never mind that their ancestors moved here AFTER 1900).

You've been the victim of bigotry, but just because we don't experience the things you do for the same reasons, doesn't mean we haven't experienced them. Just because we aren't gay doesn't mean we can't empathize - can't see what its like for you. Don't commit the sin of thinking that because you're gay you're special. Don't commit the worse sin of judging others based on what they are (ie: not GLBTQ) instead of who they are.

It's not about wanting to feel special or about hating straight people, and it's not about trying to make being gay the only part of my identity... It's about recognizing that there are times (not all the time, but some times), when it is nice to not have to struggle to make people who haven't experienced the same things that you have empathise with your experience but to be around people who get the things that you are going through on a more fundamental level because they have lived them.

To use a few of your examples:

- I don't read comic books and have never really understood the appeal, but if you said that you wanted to organize a comicon so that you could hang out with some other "flamboyant nerds" I would think that that was pretty cool and I certainly wouldn't criticize you for segregating yourself because of an attribute.

- If you wanted to post in the religion subforum in order to get advice from other atheists about how to deal with religious family members or co-workers, I would chastise you for segregating yourself... In fact, I'd think that you were wise to seek advice from folks who had been in the same situation you found yourself in.

- If a group of menopausal women wanted to hold occassional meetings to discuss how much hot flashes such or to talk through the pros and cons of hormone replacement therapy, I wouldn't say that they were acting bigoted towards men or younger women.

I agree with your broader point that LGBTQ people should not allow sexuality to be the only thing that defines us, but I don't think that discussion forums such as this one do that. I have many identities and I have enough mental capacity to treat everyone with dignity and respect while simultaneously acknowledging that certain attributes have disadvantaged and advantaged me and changed my life in ways that people who do not have those attributes did not have their lives changed. And I don't find it unreasonable that people would want to occassionally carve out some space where they can talk about the common experiences.

Don't move the goal posts, or put words in my mouth, please. The reason I jumped in, and what I have been commenting on the whole time, is this question:

TBH I think straight people commenting on GLBTQ issues is perfectly fine, as long as they take the time and effort to empathize with the people who those issues affect.

Also it seems to me that your guy's argument were on too completely different things, and that both of you were reading too much between the lines on what the other was saying and assuming they were implying things that they weren't.

I do agree to some point the ideas both of you were expressing, although both of you were being a bit too defensive and personal.

While being gay isn't who I am as a person, it has in large part defined a very big part of me, and a good portion of my life would be different If i didn't grow up gay in a small town in the mid-west (if I had grown up straight, I would have been more outgoing in highschool and likely went to a different college, and met different people who would have shaped my personality differently...etc).

However, just because someone else isn't gay doesn't mean that they can't empathize with being so nor formulate reasonable opinions on glbtq issues.

I'm sure this was written in a point of extreme frustration about someone you were in a relationship with, but I hope you were being facetious and are doing well.

@EvilGreebo.

I'm sorry that you think that I put words in your mouth, but that was not my intention, nor do I think that I actually did so.

(Bear with me b/c I can't multiquote on my phone)

YOU SAID: You should not put yourself in a category where your orientation is definitive of you as a person.

I SAID: it's not... about trying to make being gay the only part of my identity.


YOU SAID: Don't commit the sin of thinking that because you're gay you're special.

I SAID: it's not about wanting to feel special

YOU SAID: Some of the worst bigots are the victim of bigotry. There are Jews that will forever hate anyone of German descent... There are blacks that will forever hate anyone who is white... Don't commit the worse sin of judging others based on what they are (I.e. not GLBTQ) instead of who they are.

I SAID : it's not about... hating straight people.

I was just trying to respond to the implied allegations that I saw in your posts. As protential said, I probably went a little harder than I needed to, but I certainly don't think that I was making stuff up out of thin air.

Anyway, to get back to the original question, I agree that straight people are perfectly capable of forming opinions about GLBTQ opinions and should be able to do. Otoh, just as I think that my opinion about, say, whether a football coach made the proper decision in a certain spot would be more well-informed by talking to people who actually coach football, I think that straight people should show some deference to lgbtq folks when it comes to lgbtq issues.

Again, I'm not saying that they can't have opinions or that they can't ever disagree with an lgbtq person, just that I think that the discussion is more fruitful when people recognize that experiences shape perspective instead of assuming that there is just one objectiven universal way in which everyone can and should view the world...

I'm not sure why you think that on a forum on 2p2 that is dedicated to giving women some sort of place for free expression in a heavily male dominated world, there would be a problem with people not having some deference to those who primarily experience a given hardship probably have more insight than those who empathize but cannot truly experience that hardship.

I'm not gay nor have I ever claimed that my opinions/experiences give me more authority about LGBTQA issues than someone who actually experiences them.

But from a minority perspective, you need straight allies. Just as I encourage men (who are the vast majority in the poker world) to speak up when women are being verbally harassed in some way (because if just women do it, nothing changes), you should encourage straight people to speak up for gay rights, because there are so many more of us. If you rely solely on those who are directly effected, when that population is a minority, nothing much changes or gets fixed.

I don't think there is a problem in this forum in general, but I did have a problem with Greebo's posts in particular. I probably did overreact and fail to give the benefit of the doubt to a new poster itt.

However, I felt that his posts were not showing the proper deference b/c, from my perspective, by stating that gay people should not commit the sin of thinking that we are special because we are gay and warning about the dangers of "reverse bigotry," he was undermining the idea that being gay might give someone insight into being gay that someone who is straight cannot have. I didn't mean to imply that straight people cannot empathise with lgbtq people, or that I don't want them to speak up against injustice (and because I do appreciate those efforts I agree that I should not have gone as hard as I did). But I also don't think that you can unite people by papering over or refusing to address fundamental differences between people.

To reference the other thread about offensive table talk, I think that it is fair to say that the average woman commenting in that thread viewed rape jokes more harshly than the average male commenter. Because of that, if a women wanted a typical man to stop making rape jokes, she probably has to work a bit harder to get the guy to understand why she finds the rape joke offensive. I think the same dynamic applies here. Straight people are obviously capable of being good allies and lgbtq people should encourage those efforts, but I don't expect straight people to "get" being lgbtq quite as deeply as an lgbtq person does.

So much to respond to, so little coffee...

I'm gonna do it all in one with heavy snipping to points I either agree with or don't consider relevant, so if I miss something any of you think was particularly important please reiterate it.

We couldn't agree more on this.

Certainly - having grown up fairly small town myself (I mean, you don't get MUCH smaller than New Haven, WV, Elkins, WV and Wheeling, WV...), I understand exactly what you mean. Small town culture has a much stronger expectation for you to conform to the norm. Variations are tolerated only within reason. Fringe elements are viewed with at best suspicion, if not outright hostility.

But I submit that it wasn't being gay that defined you - it was the bigoted, closed minded reaction to you being different that had such a profound impact on your shaping as a person. You were part of a fringe- whether that was being gay or black or a woman who loved hunting, fishing and football, you were different. Gay was the catalyst, not the cause. The cause was other people.

THEY defined your personhood status based on your other-ness. The question to ask yourself is - are you going to accept their definition of you?

Then lets move past it.

Bigotry may have been too strong of a word - but prejudice isn't. Hatred isn't required for you to be prejudiced. If you're subjected to prejudicial behavior by a large share of people with a particular counter-attribute, it's very easy to decide that all people with that attribute are prejudiced.

Deference is another loaded word - especially in a women's issues forum. (ie: Women should show deference to men...) It's on par with submission.

One opposite meaning of deference is disobedience. Monday-morning quarterbacks are second guessing. People who agree with the coach aren't deferring to him, they're just agreeing. The coach is the guy who had to make the call. Others are perfectly capable of judging if the call was a good one or a bad one, just like we're capable the wisdom of judging calling a TJQs flop with pocket 27o.

I will ALWAYS defer to on the subject of your own personal feelings. I won't defer to you on the question of whether or not people who are not part of a particular set can have opinions on issues affecting people who are part of a particular set.

I actually submit that there *is* a universal way everyone can and should view the world - and it's from a position of reason. People *should* view other people based on their choices, not their attributes, and should always strive to confirm what things actually ARE choices vs. attributes.

Of course, the problem with "should" is that not everyone will actually do what they should.

I'm not sure who you're responding to here, and with that lack of context I kind of got lost in this rather long, twisty sentence. Could you distill this please?

This I agree with 100%

I'm not deferring, because I don't agree. You are, IMO, committing the very sin against which I warned above - the fallacy of "special pleading".

Fundamental differences like whether they're white or black? Or men or women? Or gay or not gay? Those kinds of fundamental differences?

Just to give some examples, one of my housemates is gay and I would definitely prefer a SGTRJ or evilgreebo to represent my kind than him - he just doesnt give a sh** about gay issues. This despite me not knowing anything about greebos views.

Similarly, my female housemate would be a terrible representative for feminist issues.

If anything, being unmotivated by selfish desires - not wanting to say that being selfish in this context is a bad thing, but rather that wanting to help people that you aren't homogeneous with is a very good thing - qualifies the opinion of such a person very well.

Imo it seems obvious straight people can and should comment in the thread, but seeing as this is a thread dedicated to LGBTQ discussion/community/issues there is just a different threshold for interaction and moderation.

For instance it would seem completely reasonable to expect a higher degree of moderation towards posts coming from non-lqbtg users when posting or comments approaches some offensive line, even if the inquiry is coming from a decent place (think this has happened once or twice).

The assumption being the thread's purpose is the promotion of the LGBTQ community, it's place within poker at large, and just an issue/discussion hangout on 2p2. THat being said anyone with any orientation who wants to be a part of that/further that goal should be welcome...seems like everyone's on the same page.

Also, special pleading, more commonly referred to as stacking the deck, is not necessarily the most apt fallacy here and need not apply to all double standards. It only applies when evidential support for action in two cases is suppressed or created for the sole purpose of reaching a given conclusion. In this case the standard would seem to be a functionalist one (the purpose of the thread itself) and those who further this standard are welcome to join.

It is also apt to assume that LGBTQ members have appropriate views of the goals of the thread as its creation is rooted in a promotion of some sort of aggregate want/need. Granted i recall there being a ban or two of LGBTQ members for doing stupid things in this thread (or maybe they were in BBV or something). It is also fair to assume that straight people do not necessarily share the same goals/view of the thread, and thus those that start to violate it/act inappropriately are noticed more quickly and held to a higher standard (doesn't apply to everyone obviously, but if you can make a strong universal generalization about one group and not about another there is an evidentiary standard for double standards ...what I get for being a phil student first and an econ student/poker player second

Sorry for going off topic on what has been recently going on in this thread but I'm going to post about my experiences so far since coming out.

Everyone pretty much knows at this point. I told all my friends but I never made a huge facebook post or anything since I didn't feel it was necessary. Everyone has been very supportive which is always nice. It has been rather difficult for me to make any gay friends or get to know anyone. At this point I've pretty much just given up on trying to meet people. I find that I just have nothing to connect to with other gay men. I've had enough awkward times going to a bar and trying to meeting people but I think I would just be happier staying at home and not putting myself threw that. So in summery I've come out but the only thing that has changed is my friends stopped trying to hook me up with some girl.

The bar scene stuff really wasn't for me either, was really easy to meet people online and connect that way, and then meet up in person if everything was right/safe/etc.

Don't give up after such a small sample size and trying the same thing over and over and expecting success when there has been failure.

It certainly is worth giving it a shot.

Glad everyone has been accepting!

It sounds like you're probably kind of shy, which is separate from your sexual orientation.

Not everyone is comfortable in the bar scene. Find a scene that works for you and stop expecting that you need to be like everyone else.

Best of luck.

The funny thing is I am just being myself and that is the problem. I'm really not that shy. Of course I will be more so in a situation where I don't know anyone. I just find it really hard because of the huge separation in interests and hobbies. I get some of the strangest looks when I tell people that I like auto racing,motorcycles,hunting,fishing,camping, or whatever outdoor activity I do,football,hockey. At the same time I couldn't care less about the majority of interests that they have. I also find that some gay guy's have this aura of superiority about them that drives me ****ing crazy. I'm a very honest and down to earth person and I find that attitude beyond annoying. I'm just having a hard time right now and with all the holiday stuff coming it's probably making me more down then normal, it's always slightly depressing when all your friends are getting ready for the holidays. The one bright spot is my best friend and his wife just had their first child this year and they always make me feel part of their family.

Having people include you when you feel like the odd man out is indeed a huge boost.

Given your interests you don't sound like a stereotypical gay guy (OMG sports!). Any time your interests clash with what is expected (says the female tomboy sci fi sports loving geek), you'll get a certain type who won't look twice at you because they are looking for a very specific image. Their loss, I say.

I don't know where you live, but there's always the internet. Even just finding some friends who share similar interests might be helpful.

At any rate I think it's important not to focus on any discomfort and just put yourself out there. It'll come in time.

Yeah, you're not nearly as alone as you think you are in terms of your interests, personality and general outlook. We just don't spend much time in the bars and clubs.

Join a gay softball league. Seriously.

http://www.nagaaasoftball.org

Thanks for your reply.

It wasn't facetious, but it was extreme frustration. Not at someone I was in a relationship with, but my inability to develop relationships.

I think it was RJ that was saying something about being comfortable being yourself. I think a large part of my problem is that I'm truly not. I have a lot of deep problems that hinder my ability to have a normal life and establish healthy relationships with people. Not just romantic, but even friendly. I have very few friends, but the ones I do have are very close. I've been going to college this entire year, but I haven't made a single friend, outside of a professor, and I certainly haven't established any romantic relationships.

I think I am just fundamentally broken, and am unable to. Maybe I'll work things out some day, maybe not, and my inability to establish romantic relationships is so eternally frustrating to me, and makes me feel like dirt.

I want to taste dirty
a stinging pistol
in my mouth on my tongue
I want you to scrape me
from the walls
and go crazy
like you've made me
one who doesn't care
is one who shouldn't be
try to hide myself from what is wrong for me



I think I am doomed to forever feel an alien among the opposite. But them's the breaks.



Thank you to everyone in this thread, you're all great people.

Today my mom saw me in a new sweater (very Thanksgiving-ish), and had seen me in a few other new clothes recently. So she asked me, "do you have a girlfriend or boyfriend since you have all this new clothes?"

The answer is of course yes, I do, and yes, he got me this clothes. So we'll probably get there before the weekend's over.

I'm pretty sure you've already been, but this sounds like a good thing to take to a therapist.

Update?

So Tom Daley (famous British diver, can't post pics from phone but supremely hunkalicious) has just come out as saying that he's now in a relationship with a man... But that he still fancies girls. Congrats! And please say the b word to make me an even happier man

^ http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_4370646.html

i guess i had just assumed he was gay and wasnt too surprised by this

Pretty cool to see that he came out, didn't realize how young he is.

I haven't posted here for a while, but I just wanted to give a shoutout on this thread to Vanessa Selbst. She is ****ing awesome. Met her for the first time at the Borgata several weeks back. She sat in our mid-limit mixed game (I suspect just to get experience and learn the games--the stakes were low for her, I'd imagine, at 40/80). Randomly, she and I were seated right next to one another and started talking draw game strategy, etc. I learned some new Omaha 8 concepts from her. I was a little a star-struck, frankly--but tried to play it cool. That said, I did ask her to do a pic with me at the end of the session because I wanted to be able to brag to my husband about the session, and that I'd finished winners (although, trust me: none of the money I took off that game was Vanessa's!).

Not a brag, but also a brag. Mostly a happy event for me, where I got to sit down with one of the more highly visible gay players in the game, and was glad that she was as nice at the table as one would hope (although she doesn't speak nicely when you put a bad beat on her--but who the **** does, lol!).

Also, I realized that this was a new first for me: Although this was not the first time that I have sat next to another out, gay player in a ring game, it WAS the first time that I have sat next to another MARRIED, out, gay player, so that was cool. Just made me feel like we are slowly, but surely, making progress...

Peace y'all! And mad up's to V. Selbst. I hope to play with you again sometime, boo! XO

Thanks for the advice. I live in Buffalo,NY so it could a lot worse for me.

If this was about me, then everything went as expected -- I said nothing and so no progress was made...

If this was about Tom Daley, then there's some very lucky guy out there.

I've read parts of this thread but not everything, it's a great thread. Here are my ramblings on the subject from an older parental prospective (I tend to write novels so I apologize ahead of time)...

I just so wish people would just except people for who they are and not be so judgmental. I'm older and most of my "generation" isn't nearly as accepting of those who they consider different as I'd like. I'd like to think younger people are more accepting than people my age but when I'm sitting at an online poker table and see all the insulting remarks and how much people like using the word f#a$g#ot it really makes me wonder.

One time in the Skype chat of my former backer a couple of guys kept using the word gay to describe a bad beat or whatever. I usually tried to ignore stuff like this but that day it just really rubbed me the wrong way and I just said "you know gay isn't a derogatory term". I was glad to see they all more or less apologized and agreed that using it that way was a bad habit they needed to break. It really bugs me that it ever developed as a word to use that way.

I think all of you ITT who have accepted yourselves for who you really are and aren't trying to conform to silly social or family expectations are to be highly commended. We are who we are and we have to accept ourselves as we are. People can either accept that or not (and this includes your family), if they can't it's their problem and not yours. You are all great just like you are and don't ever forget it.

I have a daughter who's in college and she is very much a loner and over almost 4 years of college hasn't really made any friends. Oddly enough she seems to be really happy, she has online friends and is just really busy and into school. I've always hoped she would end up being straight just because life is hard enough living within the norms and it's so much harder to live outside them, not because I have any issue with her not being straight. I do admit as a parent, I'd love to see her have a big traditional wedding and give me a couple of grandkids so I guess that's part of the reason too, just to be totally honest.

She had a boyfriend her first two years of high school but has had no romantic interest that I know of since. I honestly have no idea whether she is even likely to be one way or the other. At this point though I've come to realize that it doesn't even matter to me. All that matters to me is that she's happy. If that turns out to be the more traditional heterosexual way or the homosexual way it just doesn't even matter. I'll love her and whom ever she chooses to spend her life with be they male, female, black, white, asian or whatever.

When parents have kids they have dreams and aspirations for those kids. I don't think any parent (at least a traditional one) ever dreams of their child's wedding as a same sex one. Even parents like me who are extremely accepting of alternative life styles feel this way. So when you come out remember your parents are only human with normal human fears and emotions. They may react with shock and disappointment when they find out but if they love you they will come around at least to some point.

Many parents are competitive with other parents (their friends, coworkers etc.) and it's all about who's kid makes the best grades, gets the best scholarships, has the biggest wedding and the smartest kids. When you venture off this path your parents have a lot to deal with because all these things get screwed up in their minds. They have their friends and co-workers and even worse church members, if they're religious, to contend with. They need time and patience to come to term with the mental ****ing you just landed on them so allow them that and don't take it as a personal affront or that they love you less. Allow them to feel some disappointment, it's perfectly normal. Most of all understand their side the situation. They don't mean to hurt you but they can't help how they feel. Some parents will come around sooner than others but most will come around. If they don't I'm sorry but their just selfish ****ed up *******s and you just have to deal with it and get past it. The best thing you can do is go ahead a put it out there then just give them space and time to deal with it.

Okay I know TL;DR sorry. Good luck to everyone ITT!

Cliffs: parents are people who have fears and emotions, they will come to terms with your choices even if they disapprove at first. Don't take their reaction personally it's normal, etc.