Then have the PPA post its expenditures in DC vs those outside of DC. It is not a question of anecdotal exceptions, but focus. What if the PPA had focused on hiring someone and opening a cheap Vegas OFFICE instead of Da'Amato? All I am trying to say, with D$D I hope, we never had the exact same opinion, is the PPA was never proactive at the local levels. He made the offer to travel the circuits. Hit the home games, the bar leagues, the underground clubs, B&M rooms, campuses, and charity events. THAT is what was rejected, if it was ever seriously entertained. An email in an inbox, or a call now and then does not equate with a human face near your poker game.

You reacted well in Massachusetts, and o.k. in some others. But, there was never a serious pursuit focused on recruiting, and building a player organization. I am not trying to damn you with faint praise, or attack you and TE, but I do believe strategic decisions were made BY PEOPLE NOT YOU to never build that organization because the IGC could not benefit from it long term. Conspiracy theoryish? Yes. Far-fetched? No.

I still haven't heard a response on what the PPA intends to do when IGC funding runs out this year? Arguing history aside, what happens then?

Curious why you think the PPA fundraising effort(s) you crow about constitute a success story. Perhaps the PPA has been sucking down IGC funding and giving you a vanity platform to pontificate from , instead of providing members with representation they are willing to support with donations ? If the PPA track record is so supported by membership as you believe, why don't they contribute ? You post about 6 or more States where the PPA took local action to support members. Did you follow up and collect donations ?

To be honest, I look at results, and the PPA does NOT get members to provide financial support anywhere near where a true member-representative organization should be able to.

What % of the PPA funding came from member donations in 2010, in 2011 ?

Was it more than 2% ?

What % of the 1,000,000 members made a donation in 2011, was it even 1% ?

What was the aggregate amount of member-provided funding in 2011 ? $25,000 ? Less ?

(OMG, OMG, raising money through State Directors for a % share would raise "legal concerns", OMG !!!. So, instead of throwing up your hands and doing nothing, structure it however you need to do so to get the f**king money in the coffers. If State X requires no "sharing", then let the State level retain a protion for expenses or whatever other mechanism IS allowed. )

You describe good "local" efforts, but was there any follow-up and collecting dues from members in

South Carolina,
Kansas,
Hawaii,
Colorado,
Pennsylvania,
Virginia, or
the other States where the PPA DID reportedly "act locally".

Why weren't dues collected or other donations collected ?

Why not remind the members in those States what you did for them and hit them up specficially for donations ?

You can be sure that when the local politico gets your walk shoveled in the Winter or gets you that zoning variance granted or "protects" your home poker game, he will remind you of it when he needs your support/vote in the Spring.

I suppose it's my fault for actually responding directly to some of your posts.

I will try not to make that mistake again.

The adults are trying to have a discussion here and it would be nice if you just went back to your room and plotted my demise quietly for a while.

Skallagrim

No, it didn't. I was that state director, bringing in 77 paying members from one event (I'm not sure how many were "new" paid memberships as I had no list to compare it to, but I'm sure it was most). I never received a seat or anything else - one of the reasons I turned the state director position over to someone else and became the deputy state director instead.

To be fair, the contest was to bring in 100 new paying members. But the effort was hampered by a failure of the PPA to keep its promise to establish a legal structure for the state chapters. I overcame this barrier and found a way to proceed regardless. I definitely felt some sort of recognition was deserved for my efforts, even if it was a lower buy-in for a local tournament, or such.

While I do wholeheartedly support the work of the PPA in its lobbying efforts for federal i-poker legislation, and its great works in state court cases in support of player rights, I do think it has largely failed so far in providing the support it should provide for the structuring and advancement of state grassroots chapters. I suspect that is more a function of stretched resources, which have to be prioritized, than of a lack of desire. It's easy to use hindsight to point fingers at what should have been done, and much harder to make completely correct choices not knowing exactly what the future will bring.

OK, I stand corrected. I thought someone won the contest and posted without double checking. So that means no state director was able to get 100 new paying members ....

You state: "I do think it [the PPA] has largely failed so far in providing the support it should provide for the structuring and advancement of state grassroots chapters."

So what would you like?

Skallagrim

PS - it should also be pointed out that Florida has a very strict regulatory regime for any organization that wishes to do fund raising within Florida. I spent substantial time with PX trying to figure a way to either comply (very difficult and costly) or work around that law.

It's only very difficult and costly if you operate as an organization strictly from the national office. If you enabled the state chapter to operate it's own registered organization within the state, it is very simple and cheap. That's what I would have liked.

The first actual proposal: there should be an individual (and thus essentially autonomous) PPA organization in each state.

Have you thought through the difficulties and ramifications of this? What about states where the support is small? Would 50 PPAs be better at accomplishing things than one national PPA? Would there be a need for a national PPA in that scheme, if so what would be its role? How would such a structure actually encourage more involvement, especially in a state like Alabama, for example?

This is not an issue that can be addressed with simple answers and simple suggestions.

Skallagrim

- and although I doubt it will stop the post from coming, before DQ tells everyone that my asking these questions means I have already closed my mind, let me say that I am asking these questions because they are precisely the kinds of questions that need to be asked, understood, analyzed, and (hopefully) answered before any organization undertakes such efforts.

I think national PPA should put up the frame and state PPAs finish it much like there should be a federal poker law followed by state poker laws.

I say this because states have shown they do a better job of respecting federal laws than the federals do in respecting state laws. Thinking about state laws the feds do not agree with and take the states to court over.

Now how to accomplish strong PPA chapters in all 50 states is the question.

Why not try something in one state with a strong director, like Florida had, build, learn, and go from there?

Im unclear why it would eliminate the need for a national PPA. State director builds enthusiasm, gets funding, gathers members, tackles state issues with guidance from national, then helps to filter all that support and enthusiasm towards national goals. What is the obvious roadblock Im missing?

Why is Skall answering grassroots questions when one of the few full time employees is a grass roots coordinator?

If PX cant make a go of it as state director, something is very, very broken with the grassroots effort.

Try specifically "what" is where I am going with this discussion.

Nobody said it would - but if you have 50 essentially autonomous organizations, what is or should be the role of a national organization?

FYP. And with the fix the answer is because he is on the PPA's Board of Directors.

This assumes a lot of things. Identifying those assumptions and determining which are correct, which are false, and which are a little of both is the point of this discussion.

Skallagrim

I would have said why should someone else waste their time answering questions.

For funding, maybe you guys should look to Zynga. They are looking for partners to help them with online poker.

The idea wasn't rejected at all. We've tasked every state director with that outreach effort. We've all gone to these types of events to sign up players. There was nothing unique about D$D's offer in that regard.

OK, to ask a different question: why does the Board of Directors employ the current grassroots director if they are going to be the only ones discussing grassroots efforts?

Im confused why having all the answers is necessary to experiment with grassroots initiatives. It would be like saying we cant support Federal Legislation yet because we dont have all the details of the final bill worked out. I dont know all the answers, let the state directors try some things and see what works.

How would letting PX set up a state chapter as he saw fit have caused problems with the national mission? Resources? Legal issues? Again, maybe Im missing an obvious obstacle, but what is that obstacle?

Exactly how many paid employees are tasked with this as a full-time job? Last I checked, state director is a volunteer position, with little autonomy and authority. There was never a decision to focus on this, for whatever motivation. Now, we are where we are.

What exactly are we trying to get out of this thread, anyways? No one with any sense or pragmatism thinks donations can fund the PPA in the near term. I hope no one disagrees the PPA should be more democratic. we are wasting time arguing instead of looking for new funding. But,that has been four years, why change now?

Yes, lobbying groups and nonprofits have requirements on structure and other bs. You have to spell out internal governance, especially about money.

One. Drew Lesofski is the director of this effort. Others support his efforts.

We are focusing on this. Lots of us have done a ton of work here.

PPA has sought donations for its entire existence. That will continue.

Also, surely PPA is democratic. The 2+2 community controls 1/3 of the board seats directly and has very significant influence with the rest of the board as well.

This.

I talked to PX at the time as well. I was (and am) very supportive of helping him with anything he needed. FL law was definitely not conducive to what we sought, as Skall noted.

No it doesnt, unless we're going to start taking polls before BOD votes.

You and Skall arent voting the consensus of the 2+2 community. Im not advocating that you should, and many times you will vote the consensus, but the 2+2 community doesn't control the board seats.

That makes it more complicated. So we're going to need to gut the current governance rules going forward in order to get where we need to be? Yuck. When we do, we should definitely move to a structure that gives more local autonomy if that is indeed the holdup.

Why dichotomize this discussion to state and national? Regional sectioning sounds more reasonable and manageable.

DQ is a troll. Stop wasting so much time engaging his personal implications, and just answer his questions when they are relevant imo.

FYP.

I certainly can live with substantive discussions points being raised by posters, and a cessation by others of paranoid projections about what someone "really" is trying to accomplish or silly strawman statements about what anyone "really" is going to post in the future.

Curious, if this was a level ...... if he can bring in $$$$$ from dues paying members, why would you care ?

I hope that really was a level about the "additional bookkeeping" burden of accounting for a huge flow of member dues.

Does your PS legal analysis mean that the PPA makes no attempt to "do fund raising in Florida" ?

(PPA did not have to refund the 77 members' dues that PX raised, did it ?)

What about in other States ? Is THAT perceived difficulty what stops the PPA from raising funds from members ?

Is it just easier to get a wire from the IGC up in Canada than to ask US members for dues/donations ?

Well, apparently, that "award" never did happen, as it turns out. Sorry, PX.

When Skall next comes rushing in again to float some supposed "gotcha" factoid, it deserves to be taken with a grain of salt.

As for the proffered legal analysis, mentioned as a show-stopper in Florida. here Skall claims it raises "serious legal concerns in many states".

Again, "what States' laws, other than Florida were actually looked into" ?

(I hope Skall was again just "floating the turn" when he asserted he knew paying State Directors for fundraising efforts was a "serious legal concern in many States", I am sure that the PPA found exceptions that meant it did not have to register itself, although florida and NY are reportedly tough and registrations maybe should be filed there in any event.

Fortunately, there are specialist services that can deal with the filing requirements for those States that seemingly regulate political fundraising, as well as numerous specialized law firms in the area, including ones which charge a flat fee for getting fundraisers registered..... if someone really wanted to raise funds from members, that is.)