Sort of a useless thread since OP isn't looking for feedback, but here it goes...

Since the DOJ is on record as saying players aren't violating Federal law by playing poker and the lawfulness of offering poker is still an open question in most states what's the issue?

The T&C you reference say that Im agreeing to let Merge use a third party processor, I don't see where players are signing to agree to let Merge launder money.

Combined with the fact that all precedent says that playing in a game doesn't aid and abet running a gambling business (i.e. players in a live game that are busted aren't charged with running an illegal gambling business even though they are putting money on the table and helping the game generate rake) and not really sure what the worry is here.

If the DOJ wanted to generate leverage, wouldnt it be a thousand times easier to just turn one of the WA players they have dead to rights on a felony?

Interesting information great thread

great point.

But again I'm not arguing the playing its the transactions we do and the law THEY (THE DOJ) say they are enforcing and how I interpret that law.
However, thus far the big three are in negotiations with the DOJ, no actruall trial proceedings have taken place. I think that if they proceed and go to trial with the actual big three you'd see some high roller like Dwan,Galfond, Cates, or whom ever on the stand testifying for the prosecution.

The money has to already be illegal before it is deposited. Using legal money to buy illegal goods/services is NOT laundering.

Also, as a general rule, when you start a thread and more than half of the replies are you defending your position, you should reconsider your position.

Thank you for your input but I'm expressing my point.

A. The Charges are Trumped up.

B. As citizens we should be willing to say that If you think they(the Big three or what ever poker room) is committing illegal acts then enforce that law to the Nth degree

so
C. Here are the laws you say you enforce, this is how I violated them.. Prosecute away...

Finally The DOJ the State of Washington, Kentucky, ect.. Isn't going to bring charges against thousands of people...

Hey Rodney21a

Don't you thing it would be much more useful if you used your unwillingness to back down from an indefensible position on a subject that actually benefited players? Perhaps you should take up the point that poker played for money is a Constitutionally protected means of expression? This would be far better than possibly creating an unjustified panic by suggesting that all poker players could soon being doing time in a Federal Penitentiary.

Skallagrim

No it's a question of Liberty and justice not expression.

Its a question of Civil Rights. The Right to earn a living playing a game of skill with ought having the Federal Government trying to block you from doing so.

I see all poker players who play for a living, Play recreational poker, or play only once ONLINE have so called participated in "Money Laundering"
,according the the letter of the law and how the Current Justice Department is interpreting those laws, willing to GO TO JAIL as a form of SOCIAL PROTEST.

In the history of THIS COUNTRY that's how change is made most rapidly and permanently. I say this because the Legislative and the Executive parts of the government are so polluted by corporate interest and questionable moralist.

If we as poker players on any level are not willing to take THIS ISSUE to the extreme then it doesn't get reviewed by the Courts.

I find it hard to believe a federal appellate court would find that these laws designed to fight DRUG DEALERS, EMBEZZLERS, and OTHER NEFARIOUS types where being applied to the general citizenry as JUSTICE or CONSTITUTIONAL.

In another thread some body got fed some misinformation drivel from some government employee about FINANCIAL BLACK HOLES and they board members bought that line of thinking fully. Like somehow Terrorist Cells Conspired to create an benefit from online Poker to wage their war on our "liberty"

No sir, In my view this is a Shot across the bow of the Ship of LIBERTY of THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of people who participated in online poker with the BIG THREE and its a shot being taken by OUR GOVERNMENT.

If the Federal Bureaucracy can take this LIBERTY away then what is next?

Where is the line in the sand DRAWN.

Muhammad Ali.

Most of you guys know him as a former boxer who now is a rife with major disabilities. However in the sixties he participated in a major test of LIBERTY in the United States.

This was a compilation of the Civil Rights Movement and the countries gowning distaste for the Vietnam War(which never was officially a WAR).

He was an brash lightning Rod for a rather polarizing section of the Civil Rights Movement in the Nation, the Nation Of Islam. They had extremist views on alot of things and expressed those views as was his RIGHT TO. However one of those views was that they didn't think the War in Vietnam was Law full, moral, or RIGHT.
So the government bureaucracy CHANGED HIS DRAFT STATUS and drafted him to MUTE HIM.
He refused to go. At the same time in the Country Thousands Upon thousands of other citizens who had genuine moral objections to that war or were just scared RAN TO CANADA and the were known as DRAFTS DODGERS

(Funny How our Neighbor to the north becomes a refugee camp for those here who's liberties get stomped on by the bureaucracy)

Even though he was more than capable and doing the same and earning a living he chose NOT TO DODGE but to stay and fight.

And I quote

1966
"Hell no, I aint gonna go. On the war in Vietnam I sing this song, I aint got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. Clean out my cell, and take my tail to jail without bail, cause better to be in jail fed, than in Vietnam dead"

So he fought and his case was argued in Court.

The others remained in EXILE In Canada and there numbers grew.

His case was heard by the Supreme Court.

Clay(his former name) v. United States, 403 U.S. 698 (1971)

"Decision of the Court

The Court held that, since the Appeal Board gave no reason for the denial of a conscientious objector exemption to petitioner, and it is impossible to determine on which of the three grounds offered in the Justice Department's letter that board relied, Ali's conviction must be reversed.

Bob Woodward and Scott Armstrong provide an account of the development of the decision in their book The Brethren. According to that account, Justice Marshall had recused himself because he had been U.S. Solicitor General when the case began, and the remaining eight justices initially voted 5 to 3 to uphold Ali's conviction. However, Justice Harlan, assigned to write the majority opinion, became convinced of Ali's sincerity as a conscientious objector after reading background material on Black Muslim doctrine provided by one of his law clerks, and concluded that claims by the Justice Department to the contrary had been a misrepresentation. Harlan changed his vote, tying the vote at 4 to 4. A deadlock would have resulted in Ali being jailed for draft evasion and, since no opinions are published for deadlocked decisions, he would have never known why he had lost. A compromise proposed by Justice Stewart, in which Ali's conviction would be reversed citing a technical error by the Justice Department, gradually won unanimous assent from the eight voting justices.[3]"

Meanwhile those dodgers in Canada Remained in Exile.

The US pulled out of Vietnam in two years later in 1973.

On real news programs, before the dark ages of news we have today, the Topic of those draft dodgers was brought up again and again and the ALi Case was also brought up. President Ford empathized with them and saw the unfairness of it all but did nothing.

In 1977 President Carter gets in to office and PARDONS ALL THE DRAFT DODGERS and they return home.

However, in my view, if ONE MAN wasn't willing to STAY AND FIGHT and willing to get PUT IN A JAIL CELL, they those guys would STILL BE IN CANADA TODAY.

So using the idea the more is better. If Thousands and Thousands of poker players were willing to be arrested it wouldn't take 11 YEARS for it to get heard by courts it would take 11 MONTHS.

**** the crap in Florida during the 2000 presidential election took DAYS to be heard by the supreme court.

So this is about LIBERTY, JUSTICE, and the LONG FORGOTTEN AMERICAN. WAY and YOUR WILLINGNESS TO FIGHT FOR THOSE RIGHTS.

This thread isn't exactly helping anyone but it sure is hilarious.

I'd bet that some of the turds at the DOJ have played online poker, so yeah they shouldn't be considering that now should they ?

Hilarious?

I'm talking about fundamental RIGHTS. It is not meant to be hilarious or funny. You are an AMERICAN.

I realize a large part of this online poker community is comprised of young men and women who are just starting adulthood. They are just starting their way in the world. It's easy to gawfaw and point when serious issues about your Liberty and Civil Rights are brought up. You've been raised in this era of propagandized media coverage of issues in America and tabloid style news on the local level. There is hardly any Fourth Estate in the traditional/historical sense left. Up to now alot of you successful online poker players have viewed this time you've spent in this pioneering industry as 'whatever'. Some of you have been industrious and started companies and sold software. Now governmental bureaucracy has taken shots AT YOU.

Listen I'm not advocating anarchy over the Rule of Law not in the least. In large part the pioneers of this new industry being assaulted before you are Law abiding tax paying citizens. However in history their are times when so called Rule of Law infringe on the Liberty and Civil Rights of the People.

This is one of those times.

In history when the so Called Rule of Law threatens a section of society then that part of society organizes and RESISTS until fundamental Changes are made as I have pointed out those fights have been most often and most effectively have taken place in the judicial system.

Don't be fooled. You may say to yourself that organizations like the PPA is what is needed. That they are trying to get legislation passed for X Y Z. We have this senator as our Representative and that congressman as our point man. We almost had a bill passed during the lame duck session and it was this small sticking point that caused it to not go through. If we tweak it this way or that way, if we try this approach instead of that approach then we'll get.....

One of the most appalling aspects of alot of the legislation is how the "law makers" who support legislation as a way of getting more revenue for them when the issue of Taxation of Gambling income has already been decided in the united States.

Baxter v. United States

However most of you an those you've chosen to represent you on a national level are willing to just forget about this and concede that online poker somehow needs an extra "sin tax" because that is a way they see they can unneeded legislation passed.

GOOGLE

Not to long ago the Idea that a company like this could be made and thrive wasn't a gleam in anybody's eye. It is a company that grew out of ingenuity and new technology that wasn't even written about in science fiction books, magazine, or movies. It was allowed to evolve and now it has thrived.

What is the fundamental difference between the basic service Google was founded on and the service the BIG THREE were providing to the online Poker industry. Google provides the service of searching the internet. It makes is money by getting advertisers and marketers to pay for that service in some sense. It pays people out of that service on an international level. At what point did Congress, the President, or the DOJ step in and try to get in the way of how Google pays people who make a living off of the Service they provide? Google wires money to marketers around the world.

Online poker is a game of skill.

The Big three or any online poker room provides the service of providing a way for people around the world to play poker online across international boarders. People who are skilled make money people who are not loose money. The Big Three or any online poker room make money by providing this service. How they get that money is they use a traditional RAKE to pay for the service they have provided.

It comes down to what do you believe in. When you've said or thought that poker is a game of skill.

Did you mean it?

Was it lip service?

What do do about all this mess? I say fight. You think its funny.

You have an opportunity here folks. You are going to get your money back(some of you already have) from Pokerstars, and Full Tilt. You can choose to take your proverbial ball and go home because the government bully as bloodied your nose or you can stay on the playing field and WIN.

Merge provides you an U.S. Friendly site. Merge has skins. Why don't you organized a Skin to fight for your rights? What is wrong with a PPA skin? What is wrong with those who choose to stay on the playing field signing legal documents saying that what they do and what the poker room does is not Money Laundering, not an Criminal organization, Poker is a game of skill and not a game of chance and making a living off it is not a living that needs extra taxation.

Im totally LOST. What does MUHUMMAD ALI have to do with whether signing documents on Merge makes you INDICTABLE?

He is a person who was willing to face jail time and fight for his view in court.

His doing so helped a large section of "draft dodgers" in exile in Canada come home.

I'm calling for people in the poker community to stand and FIGHT. I've pointed out that the DOJ's argument about money laundering if enforced is a charge they should be brought on the players as well as the Poker companies. I say this because it is a trump up charge.

Thank you for your response.

ok ill fight. who do I speak to about getting an indictment?

Great point.

You organize. I have suggested a Skin with Merge. Start your own poker company and WILLFULLY BREAK THE LAW that the DOJ is saying is being violated. The Law that is being misapplied for other reasons other than the actual protection of American Citizens.

Aren't there skins on Merge now? I feel like it must exist since Im playing on it. Once players opened a skin they wouldnt be players, they'd be operating a poker site. So Im sort of confused how that would effect simple players.

Should we form another non-poker related business to willfully commit bank fraud? That's part of the DOJ indictment too.

We already had a guy who did something like this. His name is Jay Cohen. Hopefully somebody decides to fight the UIGEA charges and you will get what you want.

What a transformation this thread has taken.

1) Asking if a player is breaking the law by playing poker in the US.
2) Receiving responses that it isn't.
3) Arguing with the responders, including a lawyer.
4) Advocating willfully breaking the law by starting a skin.
5) Muhammad Ali.
6) Wow.

Thank you for your response

No sir the first post was a Thesis statement of my view. All Subsequent post are supporting statements of my view. It's there to be read and digested, forgotten or absorbed.

1) its not the playing but so called money laundering

2)pointing out that it was not the playing but the so called money laundering and how the law is being used and what the law actually says

3)no body identified themselves as a lawyer and nobody has said that my points about the law and alleged money laundering were out of line.

4) Its my belief that when the so called Rule Of law infringes on the Liberties of law abiding citizens that the will full breaking of the law is a form of Social Protest its called civil disobedience . I say this because, I've tried to illustrate, its is the quickest way to make fundamental change against Liberty infringing so called RULE OF LAW.

5)I used Ali as an example of a form of civil disobedience against the DOJ and how that helped thousands of other exiled Americans. If you don't like Ali then I suggest reading about Henry David Thoreau, Gandhi, Rosa Parks, or Dr Martin Luther King.

5) Wow is right

thank you

Why couldn't you have just said "hey, lets try to get ourselves arrested to draw attention to our cause"?

I mistakenly assumed someone with a February 2010 join date, not to mention a keen interest in legal matters, would have been around long enough to know that the poster with the really neat sailboat as an avatar:

1) Was a lawyer; and

2) Had actually litigated poker related issues in court.

3) Litigation Support Network Director for the PPA

Again Thanks for your Participation.


Let me clarify, I'm not here to have a who's right and who's wrong contest among poker players. As Far as I'm concerned the only people wrong here are the DOJ and how they are haphazardly applying the law for what ever muddled motivations.

Yes I have been a member here since 2010 and I, like thousands of online poker participants was blindsided by the DOJ actions on April 15. I didn't know the gentleman has litigated poker cases. He did post information that I found about the case in Washington. As Far as my research found the only thing analogous any case has come to even close to the Trump Up charges of so Called Money Laundering the DOJ has brought up lately is the Federal Wire Act of 1961 which has more do do with the legality of BETTING and what is BETTING/GAMBLING and I stand on the side that Poker is not betting but a game of skill.

If the Gentleman wanted to inform me of something he didn't in fact he was rather pithy if not borderline condescending in his responses to me.

In my opinion coming from a military background that is no way to lead.

That is no way to have constructive and healthy discourse on any subject.

The "gentleman" simply gave you the bottom line answer and indicated that this answer was the answer affirmed time and time again BY THE FEDERAL COURTS. They are pretty much the ones who count here, aren't they?

The "gentleman" merely indicated that because the direct information had been posted many times before, the "gentleman" was not going to do your searching and researching for you.

And, of course, when a person declines to do your research for you that is a <sarcasm> very good reason to ignore what they had to say, no matter who they might otherwise be (which again is easily available information).

Rodney21a, you clearly have a lot of energy and a lot of conviction and I am very glad you are (finally) fighting on our side. All we are really trying to tell you is that this particular method of making a point, as has been thoroughly discussed before, is not going to work.

So, again I ask you, please find a better method of supporting poker to put your energy into. Perhaps here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...hread-1024101/

Skallagrim

No this IS Condescending.

And shameful.


Good Sir.

The Civil War, Abraham Lincoln.

Lincoln had to try many different generals with many different tactics until he found the the right General for the Job of winning the war.

In this war on Poker. in this war On Our liberty. You are loosing. It is evident by THIS terse and shameful response that you consider yourself a GENERAL.

Sometimes Generals need to be FIRED in order to win wars.


Good day Sir