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Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms

08-21-2010 , 06:40 AM
Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms

Quote:
While Norbert Teufelberger and his Bwin co-CEO Manfred Bodner insist that PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker will be froze out of the U.S. market should online poker legislation pass in the coming months, he admits that his company pulling out of the U.S. market in 2006 will have been the “biggest mistake”. Since that time, PokerStars and Full Tilt have become the two largest online poker rooms in the world, respectively.

“We pulled out, they didn’t. But we’ll see who was right in the end. We still believe we were correct and it’s pretty clear cut,” he tells eGaming Review.
...
It's a cut-throat business, for sure.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-21-2010 , 09:25 AM
Quote:
he admits that his company pulling out of the U.S. market in 2006 will have been the “biggest mistake”.
Quote:
We still believe we were correct and it’s pretty clear cut,”
he seems to be quite the ******
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-21-2010 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah Onion
he seems to be quite the ******
Here is the original eGaming Review article, which explains this seeming contradiction:

Quote:
If PokerStars and Full Tilt are not frozen out of the US should egaming be regulated in the country in the coming months, pulling out in 2006 will have been the “biggest mistake” Norbert Teufelberger and his Bwin co-CEO Manfred Bodner, will have ever made, he has admitted to EGRMagazine.com.

Norbert Teufelberger said that, “in his personal opinion”, PokerStars and Full Tilt are “operating illegally” in the US, that they will be “frozen out” should the market regulate, but added that should the two firms be allowed to continue to operate, withdrawing in 2006 will have been the “the biggest mistake Manfred and I ever made”.

“We pulled out, they didn’t. But we’ll see who was right in the end. We still believe we were correct and it’s pretty clear cut,” he said.
...
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-21-2010 , 10:07 AM
The issue has been beaten to death in other threads but they had/have casino games and sports betting so there's your major difference.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-21-2010 , 10:16 AM
What is "******ed" about Teufelberger's comments is that the UIGEA did not itself change which iGambling is or is not legal. So, if PS & FTP are "operating illegally", then BWIN was also doing so before they pulled out of the US (pre-UIGEA). In fact, since BWIN is a sportsbook, they were definitely doing so whereas PS and FTP only ever offered iPoker. Maybe PS & FTP should be granted licenses, but BWIN should be denied.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-21-2010 , 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
What is "******ed" about Teufelberger's comments is that the UIGEA did not itself change which iGambling is or is not legal. So, if PS & FTP are "operating illegally", then BWIN was also doing so before they pulled out of the US (pre-UIGEA). In fact, since BWIN is a sportsbook, they were definitely doing so whereas PS and FTP only ever offered iPoker. Maybe PS & FTP should be granted licenses, but BWIN should be denied.
Yup!
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-22-2010 , 01:59 AM
Any company that ever had a US facing Sportsbook will never get a license. Casinos may be a little different if they pulled out like Party did in 2006.

Lord how I miss my Party and Empire and Interpoker and ................ accounts. :-) I was such the bonus slut back then.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-22-2010 , 02:08 PM
Quote:
Teufelberger essentially blasted both PokerStars and Full Tilt: “There are only two companies in the world who are stronger in poker than us, and they are only stronger because they still operate in the US. It’s not because they have premier marketing skills or premier technology, what they have is hundreds of millions of dollars from what we see as an illegal market.
LOL seriously? Who the f is BWIN?
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-22-2010 , 07:34 PM
Bwin is Ongame Network, which is merging with Party Poker in 2011. More sour grapes....
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-22-2010 , 08:20 PM
I believe Stars and Full Tilt were the only ones who were smart and right, maybe they just have the best legal advice. This BWin CEO fails to acknowledge the difference between his company and theirs. His company is associated with accepting U.S. Online Sportsbook wagers and U.S. Online Casino wagers. You can't say that about Stars or FTP.

IMHO Stars and FTP's legal team foresaw all what is now the current political climate and chose the pure poker route, realizing that they would/could win vs. US DOJ when it came down to it, due to its strict poker only affiliation.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 05:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordan
I believe Stars and Full Tilt were the only ones who were smart and right, maybe they just have the best legal advice. This BWin CEO fails to acknowledge the difference between his company and theirs. His company is associated with accepting U.S. Online Sportsbook wagers and U.S. Online Casino wagers. You can't say that about Stars or FTP.

IMHO Stars and FTP's legal team foresaw all what is now the current political climate and chose the pure poker route, realizing that they would/could win vs. US DOJ when it came down to it, due to its strict poker only affiliation.
Doing a bit of research there seems to be a more clear pattern. Every single publicly held company pulled out of the US. Few to no private companies did so. Some, such as Bodog, did not pull out and continue to offer sports betting to US residents.

While possible it seems unusual that somehow all of the publicly held companies received the 'wrong' legal advice and the typically smaller privately held companies all received the 'right' legal advice. To me Occam's razor is quite clear here, but I'm in a small minority. And obviously my opinion is based on little more than empirical observation since I'm certainly not qualified to attempt to interpret the law unlike some that also hold your opinion.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do it Right
Doing a bit of research there seems to be a more clear pattern. Every single publicly held company pulled out of the US. Few to no private companies did so. Some, such as Bodog, did not pull out and continue to offer sports betting to US residents.

While possible it seems unusual that somehow all of the publicly held companies received the 'wrong' legal advice and the typically smaller privately held companies all received the 'right' legal advice. To me Occam's razor is quite clear here, but I'm in a small minority. And obviously my opinion is based on little more than empirical observation since I'm certainly not qualified to attempt to interpret the law unlike some that also hold your opinion.
The publicly-traded sites pulled out essentially because they are publicly-traded: the Royal Bank of Scotland and Barclay's Bank finance the public offerings of these sites on the London Stock Exchange. Due largely to their US banking presence, these banks can't be associated with activities that are [incorrectly] viewed by the DOJ as illegal. So, the bankers threatened to immediately call in the loans of the sites, which would have bankrupted the sites. The sites had no choice but to pull out. It had nothing directly to do with whether or not the UIGEA made the sites unlawful.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
The publicly-traded sites pulled out essentially because they are publicly-traded: the Royal Bank of Scotland and Barclay's Bank finance the public offerings of these sites on the London Stock Exchange. Due largely to their US banking presence, these banks can't be associated with activities that are [incorrectly] viewed by the DOJ as illegal. So, the bankers threatened to immediately call in the loans of the sites, which would have bankrupted the sites. The sites had no choice but to pull out. It had nothing directly to do with whether or not the UIGEA made the sites unlawful.
I'm not sure this is accurate at all. What loans are you referring to?

I do, however, agree that pressure from and responsibility to instiutional investors (with BetonSports fresh in everyone's minds) was a major factor.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by luxv
The issue has been beaten to death in other threads but they had/have casino games and sports betting so there's your major difference.
Party and Bwin never offered sports betting in the US. That was Europe only.

And everyone forgets that the re mastercard case that is always thrown up as proof that the Wire Act doesn't apply to poker was spefically about online CASINO gaming and not poker.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsidePoker
Party and Bwin never offered sports betting in the US. That was Europe only.

And everyone forgets that the re mastercard case that is always thrown up as proof that the Wire Act doesn't apply to poker was spefically about online CASINO gaming and not poker.
This is true, but the Wire Act is not the only Federal law in play. The Illegal Gambling Businesses Act (IGBA) is another. It is very difficult to argue, at least with respect to most states, that online casino games are not federally illegal pursuant to that law.

OTOH, the argument that the IGBA does not apply to online poker is strong.

Skallagrim
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim
This is true, but the Wire Act is not the only Federal law in play. The Illegal Gambling Businesses Act (IGBA) is another. It is very difficult to argue, at least with respect to most states, that online casino games are not federally illegal pursuant to that law.

OTOH, the argument that the IGBA does not apply to online poker is strong.

Skallagrim
Indeed. Carruthers from BoS was charged with Illegal Gambling Act violations along with Wire Act violations to the best of my knowledge.

What is the poker argument in your view? Apologies if this has been discussed many times before.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsidePoker
Indeed. Carruthers from BoS was charged with Illegal Gambling Act violations along with Wire Act violations to the best of my knowledge.

What is the poker argument in your view? Apologies if this has been discussed many times before.
The specifics of the IGBA appear to apply only to house banked games of chance and lotteries.

Also, the argument (applicable in many places) that poker-only businesses are not "in the business of betting and wagering" is also present.

Skallagrim
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skallagrim
The specifics of the IGBA appear to apply only to house banked games of chance and lotteries.

Also, the argument (applicable in many places) that poker-only businesses are not "in the business of betting and wagering" is also present.

Skallagrim
Thanks. I think I follow you. You're focusing on the fact that poker is not a game against the house rather than it not being gambling as such? It would be a fascinating argument in court that's for sure.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsidePoker
I'm not sure this is accurate at all. What loans are you referring to?
At the time, the sites had considerable liabilities from investors shedding their stocks. If the banks pulled out their underwriting and loans, the sites would bankrupt.

Unfortunately, I don't have any references to give as the articles are no longer around. It's just something I researched at the time.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerXanadu
At the time, the sites had considerable liabilities from investors shedding their stocks. If the banks pulled out their underwriting and loans, the sites would bankrupt.

Unfortunately, I don't have any references to give as the articles are no longer around. It's just something I researched at the time.
I'm still confused what you are referring to. There was for sure the potential for a share price collapse, but I'm not sure what you mean by underwriting and loans. This was a good 12 months after a very succesful IPO.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsidePoker
Party and Bwin never offered sports betting in the US. That was Europe only.
...
Party offered casino games in the US. From the Statement of Facts agreement with the US DOJ:

Quote:
The Company has entered into a Statement of Facts regarding its activities prior to
13 October 2006. Key elements of the agreement and factual background are as follows:

o From 1997 until 13 October 2006, PartyGaming offered internet gaming to players located in the US, including real-money poker and casino gaming. On 13 October, 2006, the day the UIGEA was enacted, the Group voluntarily exited the US market.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsidePoker
I'm still confused what you are referring to. There was for sure the potential for a share price collapse, but I'm not sure what you mean by underwriting and loans. This was a good 12 months after a very succesful IPO.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 12:13 PM
Not sure what your point is with either comment.

1. Yes. I know that. Are you just agreeing with me? I said they didn't offer sports betting in the US. There is a BIG difference between having offered US casino gaming and US sports betting.

2. Again. Are you just agreeing with me? That is a share price collapse. That happened after they pulled out. It could well have been worse if they didn't. What's your point exactly?
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 12:28 PM
Also, sorry if it appears I am trying to start an argument here. I'm not. I'm just a little confused as to the detail of what PX is saying. Banks underwrite IPOs, and that was 12 months prior and sold out. And Party didn't have any significant loans at that point did it?

I have just noticed that I am talking specifically about PartyGaming, who were the first to pull out. Perhaps that is where the confusion comes from.

Last edited by InsidePoker; 08-24-2010 at 12:37 PM.
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote
08-24-2010 , 02:55 PM
Full Tilt was the clear winner of the UIGEA. Its traffic was bottom of the top 10 before. I do hope they get shut out
Gamgling911 Article:  Bwin CEO Blasts PokerStars, Full Tilt as Illegal Online Poker Rooms Quote

      
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