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Old 11-14-2013, 09:06 PM   #2326
roy_miami
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by TaxGuru View Post
The other thing to remember is that when tax law changes, it almost always changes in a forward-looking way. The government is hesitant to disrupt reasonable expectations about the tax law. If they change the rules willy-nilly retroactively, it irritates honest taxpayers, damages general tax morale, and reduces general social respect for tax compliance. When there are retroactive changes, they often surround very unexpected and complex tax avoidance schemes that many tax professionals would have found suspect anyway (one recent example of a very few is the Quebec truffle scheme: http://www.finances.gouv.qc.ca/docum...aelnkandev.pdf)
Thanks for the info TG, makes a lot of sense. So are there hoards of poker players knocking on your door to represent them to get monies back?
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:20 PM   #2327
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Retroactive changes are not likely. I have written about retroactive tax law in another context (the general anti-avoidance rule).

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1107489

Also, the Radonjic (2013) judgment is consistent with both Leblanc (2006) and Cohen (2011). As the new "gambling trilogy", these cases lead to a very strong presumption that gambling winnings are not taxable and that gambling losses are not deductible.

Most tax lawyers have not thought about these issues in depth and also do not understand much about poker. My self-serving view is that you're better off speaking with folks who have familiarity with both.
Is the poster above correct in saying that the CRA can unilaterally make changes to the tax code, or is an act of Parliament required?
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:28 AM   #2328
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

The CRA administers tax law. Parliament makes tax law. The courts adjudicate disputes over tax law.

The CRA can change its administrative position, it cannot change the law.

Parliament has unfettered ability to change tax law, even retroactively, but does so very rarely. It is also often very slow in changing tax law because it takes time to draft amending language, and the Department of Finance is careful to ensure that amendments do not open up new tax avoidance avenues. This takes time and lots of analysis, consultation, vetting and input. Then it needs to make its way into a Parliamentary bill, be read, debated, passed, and become law via Royal Assent.

The courts adjudicate disputes over tax law. This often puts them in the position of clarifying what the tax law requires, especially in uncertain areas like the taxation of gambling. So long as the courts do not reach an untenable conclusion that causes the government to lose significant tax revenues, court decisions are usually left undisturbed. Better, in the view of policymakers, to have a clear, certain and predictable outcome that everyone can live with than to try to wring every last dollar out of taxpayers. This is especially the case when a legislative response will invariably lead to further and new strategies and increase uncertainty in the system yet again.
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:22 AM   #2329
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Don't pay taxes on Canadian gambling winnings!

I lived off of poker in Canada from 2007-2009 without paying taxes. I cashed out my roll of $50k and bought a house without paying taxes. I was around 21 at the time so it would def be a red flag if anyone was interested.

I made multiple $10k+ withdrawals prior to that. Any single transaction over $10k is supposed to be reviewed (to combat crime more so than tax evasion) so if you are concerned keep it under $10k. It is likely that some sort of authority figure reviewed my withdrawals and ok'd them.

Not trying to boast or anything, just demonstrating that I've been there and haven't run into any problems.

My accountant made comments that poker winnings are great because they aren't taxable. This is one of the biggest draws to online poker in Canada as taxes here are quite high. Between provincial and federal you are looking at nearly 50% tax in the highest brackets!

Gambling winnings are one of only a few Canadian tax loopholes. Enjoy it!
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Old 11-16-2013, 05:19 PM   #2330
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

This is a dumb post as it does not give any informative information. That's like me coming on here and saying I killed 20 people, and never once got caught. The area is grey, and judgements like the last one help. I believe it should not be taxed based on all the variances etc but that said, the fact you never had any issues is good, but not a fact for all.

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Originally Posted by mdv85 View Post
Don't pay taxes on Canadian gambling winnings!

I lived off of poker in Canada from 2007-2009 without paying taxes. I cashed out my roll of $50k and bought a house without paying taxes. I was around 21 at the time so it would def be a red flag if anyone was interested.

I made multiple $10k+ withdrawals prior to that. Any single transaction over $10k is supposed to be reviewed (to combat crime more so than tax evasion) so if you are concerned keep it under $10k. It is likely that some sort of authority figure reviewed my withdrawals and ok'd them.

Not trying to boast or anything, just demonstrating that I've been there and haven't run into any problems.

My accountant made comments that poker winnings are great because they aren't taxable. This is one of the biggest draws to online poker in Canada as taxes here are quite high. Between provincial and federal you are looking at nearly 50% tax in the highest brackets!

Gambling winnings are one of only a few Canadian tax loopholes. Enjoy it!
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #2331
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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My audit consisted of an interview by someone who was terrible at interviewing and didn't understand poker. They took my box of documents I brought to them, and gave it back to me months later saying "we accept your returns as filed". They missed some things in my documents and receipts that could have strengthened their case if they knew what to look for.
Can you share what type of documents they asked for? Or did you volunteer this? How thorough/complete were these documents?

Also, what type of questions did the interview ask?

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain!
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Old 11-23-2013, 02:58 AM   #2332
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Can you share what type of documents they asked for? Or did you volunteer this? How thorough/complete were these documents?

Also, what type of questions did the interview ask?

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain!
1) They asked for all my documents.
2) I gave them all my documents.
3) These documents were complete
4) The interviewer asked a wide range of questions but in two discrete groups - 1) what's your story and 2) try to get facts to build their case.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #2333
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Question Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Equal and others:

I just posted in this Titan Poker thread mentioning a recent email I got re. TP saying "no more service to Canadian customers"...

My first half-joking thought was, ,aybe the CRA's decision in Equal's case = motivated some idiot MPs to push some kind of banning BS through quietly along the lines of UIGEA? (a decade late aka STUPID considering the way things are going in the UK, and even in the US state-by-state...) (see this thread post #2328 )



Do any of you who keep up with legislative news know anything about "pending" laws here in the GWT?
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Old 11-25-2013, 02:31 PM   #2334
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Titan pulling out of the Canadian market is nothing new. PaddyPower (one of the biggest iPoker skins) stopped providing service to Canadians years ago. For years, certain skins across various networks (and even entire networks, ie Boss) have pulled out of the Canadian market for whatever reason.

This is no cause for concern IMO.
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Old 11-30-2013, 11:18 AM   #2335
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

As someone who has paid taxes as a "professional" the last 4 years, how do you go about not paying in the future?

I believe it is probably in my best interest to not request a reassessment of my previous tax filings, as I paid very little, and would like to avoid any unnecessary questions/audits.

Do I just take nothing to my accountant this year, and say I'm no longer a professional, just a guy who plays cards? Is this a viable option without a reassessment?
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:01 AM   #2336
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Well if this hasn't been posted yet, let me share this great bit of info.

Quote:
In light of the continuing influence of the source concept of income embodied in paragraph 3(a), one of the hallmarks of most wagers is that they are merely redistributive: one individual wins precisely what another individual has lost. In the shadow of the source concept of income, this merely redistributive aspect of wagers, gifts, and other wealth transfers leads to the result that wealth transfers do not constitute income from a source for Canadian income tax purposes
This is the linkhttp://www.ctf.ca/ctfweb/CMDownload....f-84398c7a5990


Basically since we're just pushing money back and forth, no business transactions are taking place. Thank goodness to be from Canada. It even says how the US basically just taxes it anyways.
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Old 12-14-2013, 05:20 AM   #2337
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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Originally Posted by winnercircle View Post
Well if this hasn't been posted yet, let me share this great bit of info.



This is the linkhttp://www.ctf.ca/ctfweb/CMDownload....f-84398c7a5990


Basically since we're just pushing money back and forth, no business transactions are taking place. Thank goodness to be from Canada. It even says how the US basically just taxes it anyways.
Not only that but because of rake poker is a losing proposition for all players in its primal form.

I don't know why they don't just tax gambling winnings in Canada anyway, I mean, who's going to oppose or get upset over that development besides the people that have figured out how to skirt the system and actually make a living from "gambling"?

I would make it simple and say you can't claim losses and any profits over $10k a year is taxable.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:02 PM   #2338
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

We don't tax them in Canada because of the laws in place to protect citizens. The Supreme Court in Canada requires consistency, certainty, predictability, and fairness in the interpretation and application of income tax law.

Therefore, if you are going to tax the 5% of winners on their gains, you must also allow the losers to be able to expense their losses. That of course is where things get sticky. Read the link I posted, it's 34 pages, but they do a great job of explaining why the government hasn't gone after anyone in 56 years for poker income.

Further the PDF suggests about 6 criteria which must be met in order to satisfy that a person plays professionally. A few of these were

-has played several years devoid of any other income, earning a consistent amount annually
-specifically avoids strong players at the table, and
-has some sort of sponsorship with a poker site.

It also goes on to say that due to the human element (as the games get stronger for example, you may no longer be able to beat the games) it is basically impossible for them to come up with a definition of what constitutes a "winning player" or not. It also mentions that most people believe they win more than they do, or that they lose less than they do, thus further blurring the lines.

Essentially most of what is written describes the Casino being the only actual business. The casino kicks winning blackjack players out, ensures they always have the edge, etc.

One more thing regarding American taxation: In Canada we base most of our laws off the United Kingdom legal framework. In it, Adam Smith's definition of income only includes 4 types. (business, land, employer, owner) or something.

I recommend that everyone who profits at poker or intends to, to read those 34 pages. While you may think it's unfair that poker players don't pay tax, it would be less fair to start enforcing taxes on Canadian players now.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:28 PM   #2339
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

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It also goes on to say that due to the human element (as the games get stronger for example, you may no longer be able to beat the games) it is basically impossible for them to come up with a definition of what constitutes a "winning player" or not. It also mentions that most people believe they win more than they do, or that they lose less than they do, thus further blurring the lines.
This is one of the biggest reasons I never believed it was taxable. The line "a reasonable expectation to profit" has always been the sticking point for me and the way I interpret it is you need to show proof of future earnings, what you did in the past is mostly irrelevant. For example, blackjack can be shown to be profitable because the house has an edge of a few percentage points. In poker its very difficult to prove a player has an edge because not only is it a negative sum game for the players but its also very fluid. Meaning you might have an edge over a player for a while but with slight adjustments he could gain the edge over you.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:39 PM   #2340
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I'll never be a long term winning gambler or blink the lottery, but I like how we don't get taxed on gambling winnings in Canada and hope that never changes.
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Old 12-15-2013, 01:14 AM   #2341
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

yep I like it too. I don't particularly like not paying taxes though. I do think Canada has some great social programs and so on. I am expecting later to rent out properties and of course will pay in plenty when that time comes.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:33 PM   #2342
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Text I put together for a possible op-ed ...

Poker Players Get Fair Deal

Winning poker players face a tough decision every April—to report or to not report. If they choose not to report their poker winnings as income, they may be on the wrong side of the tax law. If they are found to be professional poker players, they will face interest and penalties in addition to the tax they would otherwise have had to pay on their net winnings. Moreover, they may forever face a higher risk of unpleasant tax audits from the CRA. On the other hand, if they report their poker winnings as income, the CRA will be happy for them to pay tax on their winnings. But by volunteering to pay, they may regard themselves as patsies. The taxation of gambling winnings is a grey area in tax law, and no self-respecting poker player wants to be a patsy.

With a recent judgment by the Federal Court in Radonjic, tax matters are now a little more certain, predictable and fair for winning poker players. Of course, Canadian gamblers have long known that generally their losses are not deductible and gains are not included in income. The grey area surrounds an idea that the courts have also embraced, which is that professional gamblers are taxable on winnings. The courts have yet to find that a poker player is a taxable professional, leaving winning players in the confounding dilemma of deciding whether to report or not to report. This is where the recent Federal Court decision in Radonjic (2013) comes in to clarify matters.

Peter Radonjic had started playing poker full-time in 2003 and was winning. To be better safe than sorry, shortly thereafter he decided that he would include his poker winnings as income on his tax return, which he did for several years. After discussion with other poker players, Radonjic had a change of heart. In 2011 he filed amended tax returns with the CRA for the years, requesting that the income tax he had paid be returned to him on the basis that his poker winnings had not been taxable income. The CRA refused. Radonjic unsuccessfully exhausted the CRA appeals process before successfully challenging the decision in Federal Court.

In the Federal Court judgment in Radonjic, Justice Russell made a number of clarifying observations. First, as a matter of logic, Justice Russell explained that the fact that a taxpayer at poker won is not evidence that a taxpayer had a system to win at poker. Second, playing poker on a computer on an intense and regular basis over an extended period of time is not itself evidence of a system to win at poker. Third, he explained that most poker players study, practice and try to improve their skills. If an online poker player attempts to improve and wins, it does not mean they have devised a system to win at poker. Fourth, cutting back on other work and income while winning at poker is no indicator of a system to win at poker. Being able to work less is one of the fruits of successful gambling, just as having to work more may be one of the results of unsuccessful gambling. Finally, poker players will as a practical matter need to keep records to prove the source of funds for tax purposes; having records does not indicate anything about the character of the underlying gambling activity. Justice Russell has narrowed the grey area for winning poker players.

The conceptual challenges for the Minister with respect to the taxation of gambling gains of poker players are now substantial. Prior to Radonjic, it was clear that there is a strong legal presumption that gambling winnings and losses are beyond the reach of the Canadian income tax. This presumption now appears to be stronger in the aftermath of Radonjic. The challenge for the government relates to showing that an individual poker player is carrying on the business of playing poker professionally when the Minister cannot validly rely on the player’s winning record, the player’s intense play over a long period of time, the player’s attempts to improve, the player’s reliance on gambling for a livelihood, or the player’s keeping (or not keeping) of records. It is difficult to imagine how the government would be able to demonstrate that a poker player is a professional without relying on any of these considerations.

Perhaps it is reasonable to bet that things just got a little bit more certain, predictable and fair for winning poker players.
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Old 01-03-2014, 12:08 PM   #2343
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Nice piece. My only suggestion regards the first paragraph. Perhaps many players decide not to pay taxes not because they don't want to be a "patsy" but because of the murkiness of the tax law as it applies to gambling in that they may not be granted similar benefits that traditional businesses have been entitled to. Such as claiming losses. As was experienced by the lawyer who paid taxes then tried to claim losses in a losing year and was denied.
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Old 01-07-2014, 06:27 PM   #2344
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

I like it. Another solid contribution from the coolest legal expert in Canada
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Old 01-07-2014, 11:14 PM   #2345
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Well written article, thanks!!
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Old 01-28-2014, 02:37 AM   #2346
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Hey guys,

Sounds like the Radonjic case is good news, wondering if someone could answer a few questions regarding my particular situation.

I have been playing poker since 2005. I was full-time university 2005-2009 so I didn't pay taxes. In 2010, I played full-time, and ended up payin ~20k in taxes after deductions. My tax bill caught me off guard, and I had a really tough time rebuilding in 2011...In 2012 I looked for some part time work, and played on the side. So I paid for 2010, but not 2011 and 2012.

This past year (2013) I made a significant amount. Right now I'm leaning towards not paying.

1) All things considered, would it be reasonable to avoid paying for 2013
2) Given the new precedent set by the Radonjic case, would it be reasonable to expect not pay moving fowards?
3) Would it be worth it to look at trying to reclaim the ~20k I paid in 2010? It could be quite a hassle, but 20 thou is a lot of money.
4) I have no other sources of income, or investments. If I were to not pay taxes on poker, what would I file in my tax return? Nothing?

Thanks to all who have contributed here, very good job guys!
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Old 01-28-2014, 01:34 PM   #2347
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkallday2 View Post
Hey guys,

Sounds like the Radonjic case is good news, wondering if someone could answer a few questions regarding my particular situation.

I have been playing poker since 2005. I was full-time university 2005-2009 so I didn't pay taxes. In 2010, I played full-time, and ended up payin ~20k in taxes after deductions. My tax bill caught me off guard, and I had a really tough time rebuilding in 2011...In 2012 I looked for some part time work, and played on the side. So I paid for 2010, but not 2011 and 2012.

This past year (2013) I made a significant amount. Right now I'm leaning towards not paying.

1) All things considered, would it be reasonable to avoid paying for 2013
2) Given the new precedent set by the Radonjic case, would it be reasonable to expect not pay moving fowards?
3) Would it be worth it to look at trying to reclaim the ~20k I paid in 2010? It could be quite a hassle, but 20 thou is a lot of money.
4) I have no other sources of income, or investments. If I were to not pay taxes on poker, what would I file in my tax return? Nothing?

Thanks to all who have contributed here, very good job guys!
My opinion is it would be worth it to try to reclaim the $20k which would essentially give you a "get out of jail free" card on all future gains. Plus as a bonus its likely you get the $20k back.
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Old 01-30-2014, 03:19 AM   #2348
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Yes, if you don't claim then you would file anything you made non poker related, or nothing if you made nothing.

I don't know if trying to reclaim the 20k is worth while? Others can chime in but I am sure the CRA will fight it to some degree and it will probably cost you at least 10k to do that I'd image, possibly much more. I think for over 50k it would be more worth while... But just my opionion

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkallday2 View Post
Hey guys,

Sounds like the Radonjic case is good news, wondering if someone could answer a few questions regarding my particular situation.

I have been playing poker since 2005. I was full-time university 2005-2009 so I didn't pay taxes. In 2010, I played full-time, and ended up payin ~20k in taxes after deductions. My tax bill caught me off guard, and I had a really tough time rebuilding in 2011...In 2012 I looked for some part time work, and played on the side. So I paid for 2010, but not 2011 and 2012.

This past year (2013) I made a significant amount. Right now I'm leaning towards not paying.

1) All things considered, would it be reasonable to avoid paying for 2013
2) Given the new precedent set by the Radonjic case, would it be reasonable to expect not pay moving fowards?
3) Would it be worth it to look at trying to reclaim the ~20k I paid in 2010? It could be quite a hassle, but 20 thou is a lot of money.
4) I have no other sources of income, or investments. If I were to not pay taxes on poker, what would I file in my tax return? Nothing?

Thanks to all who have contributed here, very good job guys!
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Old 01-31-2014, 04:42 AM   #2349
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Hey guys, I am told that there is a state tax for winnings in California. If I play the LAPC and cash will I get the state tax + the 30% withheld from me? If so, can I recover both of them or just the 30%?
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Old 02-01-2014, 01:37 PM   #2350
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Re: Canadian Online Poker Tax Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkallday2 View Post
Hey guys,

Sounds like the Radonjic case is good news, wondering if someone could answer a few questions regarding my particular situation.

I have been playing poker since 2005. I was full-time university 2005-2009 so I didn't pay taxes. In 2010, I played full-time, and ended up payin ~20k in taxes after deductions. My tax bill caught me off guard, and I had a really tough time rebuilding in 2011...In 2012 I looked for some part time work, and played on the side. So I paid for 2010, but not 2011 and 2012.

This past year (2013) I made a significant amount. Right now I'm leaning towards not paying.

1) All things considered, would it be reasonable to avoid paying for 2013
2) Given the new precedent set by the Radonjic case, would it be reasonable to expect not pay moving fowards?
3) Would it be worth it to look at trying to reclaim the ~20k I paid in 2010? It could be quite a hassle, but 20 thou is a lot of money.
4) I have no other sources of income, or investments. If I were to not pay taxes on poker, what would I file in my tax return? Nothing?

Thanks to all who have contributed here, very good job guys!
Poker winnings are not taxable. It could not be any clearer. In fact, it can only get worse going forward, so I urge everyone to get their money back from the CRA ASAP.

Note I am not a lawyer or tax professional and I am not giving legal or tax advice, so consult your professionals.

Source: I am the dude in the case you mention.
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