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60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday 60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday

12-01-2008 , 12:00 AM
Gotta say, the Washington Post article (part 2) is definitely encouraging. At least it presents our side as well as the other side with some facts.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zachvac
Gotta say, the Washington Post article (part 2) is definitely encouraging. At least it presents our side as well as the other side with some facts.
Yes, but the trouble is the readership of the post as compared to the viewership of 60 Minutes is minimal at best.

We need to push that story and hopefully other papers will pick it up.

Also, comment on the article!

obg
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle
So I'm a bit confused about this, especially after watching this. Can somebody explain what our argument is against it being illegal? I always tell everybody I know that online poker is in a gray area, but after listening to that I don't know how to back it up.
Hanaway was stating her belief that the Wire Act applies to all online gambling, which the DoJ feels includes sports betting, poker, games of chance, horse racing, and other games subject to chance (this excludes games of skill -- those are regulated by the FTC).

Many poker players believe the Wire Act is properly interpreted as applying only to sports betting. An appeals court has upheld that interpretation. Many poker players also believe poker to be a game of skill that could properly be regulated by the FTC.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMoogle
So I'm a bit confused about this, especially after watching this. Can somebody explain what our argument is against it being illegal? I always tell everybody I know that online poker is in a gray area, but after listening to that I don't know how to back it up.



Distributed Denial of Service
Article quote on WP:

Quote:
"Internet gambling poses an unacceptable risk due to the potential for gambling by minors and compulsive gambling," Catherine L. Hanaway, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri, testified last year before the House Judiciary Committee.”
FULL story on Hanaway comments:

Quote:
It should also be pointed out, at the same hearing Hanaway testified it was NOT illegal for U. S. citizens to gamble / play poker online, only for companies to process “Illegal” Internet wagers while NOT defining illegal except the DoJ feels all Internet wagers are illegal.
sadly too often only half the story is reported.

obg
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
The second half of the Washington Post article has been posted, at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...113002006.html
Please digg at http://digg.com/business_finance/Was..._Poker_Debated


Prohibition vs. Regulation Debated As U.S. Bettors Use Foreign Sites

By Gilbert M. Gaul
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 1, 2008; A01



By many measures, Neteller PLC was a huge success. Founded in 1999, the financial services company signed up millions of customers and saw its market value soar to almost $2 billion.

But in 2006, Congress passed legislation that effectively banned the company from the U.S. market. Later, federal agents arrested the firm's two founders and seized their pricey Malibu beach houses and millions of dollars in other assets.

Neteller's crime: It processed payments for U.S. poker players and thousands of other Americans who were using Internet gambling sites.

Even as bettors around the world gamble millions of dollars online, confusion reigns about the legal status of those bets and the companies that handle them. According to the Justice Department, Neteller was "a colossal criminal enterprise masquerading as a legitimate business," violating a 47-year-old law aimed at organized-crime bookies. Prosecutors contend the law applies to any and all betting on the Internet, as well as the electronic money transfers enabling those bets.....
Can you all post the digg link on other 2+2 forums as appropriate? I'm still restricted to Legislation. Thanks.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:27 AM
You're restricted to Legislation? WTF is up with that? You're one of the best posters on twoplustwo IMO. You contribute far more than most people here.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
Can you all post the digg link on other 2+2 forums as appropriate? I'm still restricted to Legislation. Thanks.
Posted in the ZOO thread..
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEngineer
Can you all post the digg link on other 2+2 forums as appropriate? I'm still restricted to Legislation. Thanks.
posted in NVG.

obg
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbookguy
posted in NVG.

obg
Thanks KEW and OBG.

I posted a couple of comments to the WaPo article. Let's all visit and vote up the pro-freedom comments.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:59 AM
I sent the below e-mail to some friends and family after watching the 60 Minutes piece on the Absolute Scandal. If you find it interesting and/or informative, great. If you find it tl;dr, that's okay too. Message starts now:

So, 60 Minutes aired its exposé on the Absolute Poker cheating scandal tonight; it was supposed to air at the end of October but, I don't know, I guess there was some big election of historical significance or something in the United States that kept pushing it back. The story is available at: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=4639016n

Prior to the airing of the story, I had mixed feelings about the coverage of it.

On the one hand, this is a company that needs public scrutiny; when you're responsible for wrongdoings that took your consumers for $20 million, that's something that demands public attention.

On the other hand, this country has so many misconceptions about gambling and what the proper legal response to it is that, if not handled properly--and especially with poker's current precarious legal status in the dawning hours of the Bush Administration--it could result in a very negative outcome for the game.

With that said, after watching the story, I was pleased with the angle 60 Minutes took on the story. Despite one factual inaccuracy (they repeatedly said throughout the story that online poker is illegal in the United States; in reality, it's not illegal nationwide and is an issue left to the individual states to determine), the story seemed to imply that regulation of the industry is needed, which is a position that I find favorable. They repeatedly made reference to the fact that there are no legal channels for online poker players to take should scandals such as these occur; indeed, it's especially difficult to implement and enforce regulations over an industry that's largely based outside of the United States.

My own thoughts are that outright bans are rarely effective (see: prohibition). Yes, gambling has the potential to become addictive and you can cause great damage to yourself if you don't partake in it responsibly. But the same is true of consuming alcohol or cigarettes; that doesn't mean that we make them illegal. Instead, we allow people to have the freedom to partake in these activities but we provide regulation over these industries to ensure that they don't coerce or otherwise take advantage of their consumers and the addictive nature of their products. We place an additional tax on these products so that we might provide services to those who might have gone a little too far with alcohol or tobacco, so that they might seek rehabilitation.

The bottom line is that we don't deny people the benefits of alcohol simply because some might abuse it. The same should be true of poker.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 01:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmAnonymous
You're restricted to Legislation? WTF is up with that?
Mason and I don't always see eye to eye. It's his forum and I'm fine with it.

Quote:
You're one of the best posters on twoplustwo IMO. You contribute far more than most people here.
Thanks! I appreciate the compliment.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 01:29 AM
is it only 12 minutes long? Is there a way to watch the entire thing online or not yet?
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 01:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by metsfan88
is it only 12 minutes long? Is there a way to watch the entire thing online or not yet?
That's all of it.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 02:02 AM
Have you always had this restriction or did it start after his calling for your resignation just before the elections?
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 08:37 AM
the 60 minutes piece is/was terrible for usa online poker and luring in new players. repeated mentions of it being nationally illegal and the fact the focus was on cheating and super users, well, that's just great. yes i can see more fish wanting to play at illegal sites in which cheating occurs.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by newbeginnings
the story seemed to imply that regulation of the industry is needed, which is a position that I find favorable.
had they done a story on pokerstars would you have had the same conclusion about usa specific regulation?
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 10:16 AM
So far three neighbors have mentioned this story to me and now of course they believe they live next to John Dillinger. I'll post again if my co-workers mention anything.

Story was a typical 60 Minutes hit job which presented the angle they thought would get the most viewers and make a splash. At least they didn't mention that both Raymer and Moneymaker had family connections that enabled them to join the National Guard to avoid serving in Vietnam.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 10:42 AM
I remember when this stuff first started unfolding but where is the full story of what happened with AP/UB? I just remember all the talk about Seif and everything and then I stopped following it for a bit.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 11:06 AM
Can anyone say, SCAPEGOAT

What a crock of **** - insiders, ya right !


These companies where in on this whole thing and any fool can see that.

Congrats to 2 plus 2 players for uncovering this but it was the company not some rogue employee's.

Where there is smoke there is fire.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 11:44 AM
I've already had two of my friends (who are fish), tell me that they're never depositing on an internet site again. Now they realize they were "cheated by people who could see their cards". That's what they said.

Obviously a bad piece for online poker.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffMan78
I've already had two of my friends (who are fish), tell me that they're never depositing on an internet site again. Now they realize they were "cheated by people who could see their cards". That's what they said.

Obviously a bad piece for online poker.
People are stupid. Unfortunately, those "stupid" people are the most easily manipulated by suggestive media, such as this horribly vague and inconclusive 60 Minutes piece. Add in the fact that these people are too stupid to figure out how to win at online poker, they'll grab at any straws placed in front of them before they admit they're...too stupid to figure out how to win at online poker.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 01:22 PM
60 Minutes has some kind of "mailbag" they read from regarding viewer reactions to their stories. I hope some/many of you who have been following this issue will let them know about the blatantly incorrect statements they made in this segment.


Here's the contact info:

EMAIL: 60m@cbsnews.com

PHONE: (212) 975-3247
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 03:31 PM
As 60 Minutes hit pieces go it wasn't too bad. I've been involved in a 60 Minutes hit piece before (20 years ago) and that was over the top bad. I think the piece wasn't nearly as terrible as the forums are making it out to be. I don't think that the show misled as to legality (I only watched it once, maybe I missed the part that says playing in the US is illegal, if so I retract.) It is clearly illegal to set up a server in the US and offer sportsbetting for money. It is a bit more gray as to casino games and poker, but they are certainly illegal in at least some states, and the uncertainty of the applicability of the wire act is enough to compel wise businesses to locate offshore in any event. The fact is that the US DOJ says it is illegal, so reporting it as illegal isn't without basis, and I don't think that anyone has ever accused 60 Minutes of fair and balanced journalism.

Where I think that they do get it wrong is saying that the games are unregulated. False. The UK, Gibraltar, Sweden and IOM have strong regulation. Other places, such as Vanuatu, Belize and Costa Rica have absolutely none. Other jurisdictions fall somewhere in the middle. Making the claim that internet gambling is entirely unregulated is baseless and should be retracted.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldbookguy
Article quote on WP:



FULL story on Hanaway comments:



sadly too often only half the story is reported.

obg
OBG,

Can you please link to transcript or video of Hanaway's testimony where she says it's not illegal to play. I've searched for it, but have only found the main part of the testimony, not the cross-exam. / Q&A part where she concedes that playing is not illegal.
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote
12-01-2008 , 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergsz
OBG,

Can you please link to transcript or video of Hanaway's testimony where she says it's not illegal to play. I've searched for it, but have only found the main part of the testimony, not the cross-exam. / Q&A part where she concedes that playing is not illegal.
The video is or was on the PPA website.

Also on you tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hLvHeZMakc

Sound is bad, listen close, at the end, clip only 34 seconds long.

obg
60 Minutes piece this coming Sunday Quote

      
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