You weren't providing a service, 2+2 was, a service that they usually charge people for.

Whether TT is a jerk or not is irrelevant to this thread. If you'd like to debate that topic, take it up with the administrators of the site via PM. They're not hard to find.

This thread is about you demonstrating beyond a reasonable doubt that you're a spammer and a troll. You've done so very effectively, and as such I must agree that TTHRIC.

That's just it. Right now spam is defined by whatever the mod decides to call spam. However, what TT calls spam, several people call a service.

Also, when TT told me to slow down, that was defined by whatever TT calls slowing down. Please don't take this to mean that I thought it was okay to immediately post after he told me not to. I deliberately disobeyed him. However, I would like to know what frequency constitutes excessive bumping. Obviously people disagree with TT's position on this. Maybe we should try to more appropriately define these things or maybe we should just continue to let TT decide and people who don't like it can get their own forum.


Now, about my actions. It seems that most people agree that I was wrong to deliberately defy TT. That is a separate issue from the merits of the 40-80 thread. I think we should try to find solutions that we can agree on here for both issues. I, for one, don't intend to settle quietly for a locked thread and a lifetime ban on ever uttering the word potawatom in the B&M forum just because i disobeyed a mod.

You can, I suppose, appeal to the admins on this site. I wouldn't be shocked, though, if these TT's notions on what constitutes spammy behavior is based on pre-existing site policies or discussions in the super-secret mod forum.

Also, maybe you should use common sense rather than look for a rulebook so you can find loopholes that give you an angle for excessively pimping your game.

I would settle for keeping the 40-80 thread locked and you not being able to start threads on potawatomi, but I am not TT. Note that none of this prevents some of your "friends" in this thread from starting threads on their own.

As a regular in the 40 game I can say that the game is often as good as OP describes. If the thread gets locked and our nice little game is not flooded with a bunch of 2+2ers I probably won't complain. While the poto thread may benefit OP by keeping the game going it also benefits any 2+2er who reads it and decides to take a shot at a beatable 40-80 game that they otherwise may not have known about.

Listen, it's kind of like this. When schneids describes the way he played one hand or another he's providing a service to the small group of people that read his posts. He's allowed to provide that service because 2p2 provides this web site. People are able to access that information for free because the information conforms to the "2p2.com mission statement in a nutshell" (my words, hypothesis) which is: "help people make money playing poker." (my words, hypothesis)

When I promote the poto $40-80 I provide a service to a small group of players who might be interested in playing bigger limit games in the milwaukee/north chicago area. I'm allowed (or at least used to be allowed) to provide that service because 2p2 provides this web site. People are able to access (or, at least, should be able to access) the information I provide because it conforms to the "2p2.com mission statement in a nutshell" (my words, hypothesis) which is: "help people make money playing poker." (my words, hypothesis)

When schneids posts a hand he also helps himself as a poker player. He gets feedback on the hand which may help him tackle a similar situation in the future. When I promote the poto game, I help myself as a poker player. People find out about the game, they play in it and the game survives so that I can make money (hopefully) in it.

If i lived in a place that had a regular, robust, higher stakes lhe game I would spend zero time promoting anything and more time reading schneid's posts. I don't have that luxury. So, for me specifically and others in my area, "help people make money" partially hinges upon our ability to keep fragile games alive. 2p2.com has helped us do that. And I truly appreciate it.

From a money perspective, the time I've spent on this site and the couple of hundred bucks I've spent on 2p2 books have been the best investment i've ever made and it's not even close. If I get ridiculed, slandered and banned for life, I'll still be very appreciative of 2p2. And while I applaud TT's willingness to give his own free time to help maintain the site, I think his recent actions run counter to the type of service that 2p2.com tries to provide.

Joe Willie, the poker room manager and some of his colleagues want to advertise the room more. I've talked with them about it but I haven't specifically suggested web banners on 2p2. Joe himself is not too computer savvy and I don't know what kind of ad budget they have but I also think this would be a good idea for the poker room.

I don't, however, think that web advertising by the room should be seen as something that replaces an individual poker player's freedom to promote, on this web site, the games in which he/she plays. I feel that both forms of promotion should be able to coexist and, in fact, should be encouraged.

dorf - Are you really this dense?
You were ALLOWED to talk up the room and the game you were trying to promote.
They actually were letting you do this.
Get it?

They ask that you not go too far and too crazy with it though.
How are you to know when something is too far?
Well, just try to keep it reasonable within your good judgment and if you go too far somebody will tell you to "slow down...because you're taking this too far."

These are the rules and they aren't that difficult to figure out if you don't sit around demanding EXACT rules on how frequently you should be allowed to post about something.

As I said before: Nobody is going to say that posting every 72 hours and 1 minute is okay but if you post every 71 hours and 59 minutes then you crossed the line.
It's up to the judgment of the mods. And they will warn you and give you plenty of time to figure it out and adjust your approach before going the way of locking the thread without giving you any chance at all.

You had forewarnings that you were breaking the rules.
You wanted feedback on what exactly constitutes "too much" and you got it...but since you didn't like it you dismissed it.

You have so much freedom to post about whatever poker room you like. So stop acting like you don't. 2+2 just asks that you keep it within reason and...if you aren't doing that...they will politely request that you slow down.

You are intentionally being obtuse and difficult about this whole thing and acting like some great travesty against your freedoms has caused you great harm.

[QUOTE=MicroBob;5138053]dorf - Are you really this dense?
QUOTE]


Bob, slow down. I actually am sort of dense

Wait. Are you now saying I'm not banned from discussing the potawatomi $40-80? TT doesn't seem to think so. he said this:

on being intentionally obtuse...it hasn't been intentional but I guess I can see where you would make that conclusion. the thing is is that TT and I had already had a discussion along these same lines about a previous thread (i actually think you participated in those discussions but not sure and for the life of me I can't find a record of them. they may have happened in the mod forum. can't remember.) that I had made which eventually died (despite what people might think, I don't intend to bump these threads ad infinitum).

the 40 game was brand new and the biggest lhe game in the area so i planned to promote it for a while until the game got momentum. When TT told me to slow down I felt like we were again rehashing an old argument that was already finished and that he was just hassling me again out of some personal grudge or who knows what. He then went on to strengthen my notion by contending that I'm a shill and saying other things about me that he knew to be false based on previous conversations.

Anyway, I felt that the "proper channel," i.e. talking to TT was useless. I get your point about mods being able to point out guidelines and I think that's a fine way to do things...unless the mods are being unreasonable. I think TT was being unreasonable. Now, maybe you'll say, "well, you should have brought it up in ATF then" or something like that. Well, I thought we had this all ironed out the last time this happened. That's very frustrating when I'm doing things on the B&M forum that I think should be encouraged.

God why is this thread still here? dorf, what are you hoping to accomplish?

You WERE shilling for that game.
You even admitted that your intention was to promote it. This is SHILLING it.
Not hard to figure out.

When TT told you to slow down you no longer have ANY excuse of "how was I supposed to know what is too much?" It's too much when he tells you it is.

My goodness. You need to stop with your own warped logic and go back and listen to the reasoning being given to you throughout this thread and through the PM's that TT sent you. If you are actually able to listen to somebody else it should all make sense. You keep insisting, over and over, that when TT told you think that you felt it wasn't right so you just kept doing it.

It wasn't rehashing an 'old argument'. It was you being a problem-poster again and him trying politely to get you to stop doing that instead of having to take action.

Since you seem completely incapable of listening to his input or advice he has taken the rather drastic step of saying that you should no longer post on that topic. Because you can't tell what is right and what is wrong in posting procedure at all. And because you apparently won't listen when somebody tries to help you as TT did.

2. a person who publicizes or praises something or someone for reasons of self-interest, personal profit, or friendship or loyalty.

4. to advertise or promote (a product) as or in the manner of a huckster; hustle: He was hired to shill a new TV show.

Everyone on this website still has the privilege of promoting their local game to a reasonable degree.

Everyone except you.

You have lost that privilege due to your self-centered, obstinate behavior. Behavior that you have continued to exhibit within this thread.

What's sad is that Dorf does not get it.

Dorf- You were warned, and you admitted to ignoring the warnings. What do you think should have happened? There is a cause and effect for everything.

I hope your poker skills are better than your reasoning & comprehension skills. Because, they suck.

Oddly enough Mat Sklansky just asked me the same thing.

Banning people because of their inability "to get a clue" would leave this forum a ghost town. Is this the road Mat really wants to go down?

I would like to offer a compromise to TT and thedorf. I play in the Potawatomi mid limit games so the locking of thedorf's thread has a direct influence on myself. My suggestion is this.

1. A new thread will be started in the B&M forum regarding mid limit games that run at Potawatomi.
2. The first post will outline the schedule of games that run on a weekly basis (this includes day and time).
3. Additional posts will give updates as to the status of the games. For example, if a game is not going to run in a given week or is delayed to a later time it will be posted about. If a game does not run or runs for a significantly shorter period of time than normal it will be posted about.
4. The quality of play in the games will not be discussed. Promotion of the games based on quality of play, number of players, regulars, or unknowns will also not be allowed.

There are games that run at Potwawatomi that do not run anywhere else in the midwest or even the country. People on twoplustwo should be aware of when and where such games are played. The B&M forum seems like a perfect place to let people know where they can play particular poker games. I'd hate for a grade school squabble between thedorf and TT to interfere with the integrity of the B&M forum and its posters.

WTF? This thread is still open?

Don't deal with terrorists.

FYP

even most of what i'm sure you would agree is spam provides a service to more than several people.

i suggest this issue be dropped voluntarily.

Bob,

You don't understand what a shill is. First off, a shill never never never admits any association with the entity for whom he/she is shilling.

Promoting something for reasons of self interest is not called shilling, it's called promoting (something I've fully admitted to). Shilling is when you claim no association with the entity for whom you (and yourself) are trying to make money.

Here's a good example: (by the way, SERIOUSLY!? we've been talking about shills the last three days, *TT* posted an exact definition of the word and you guys still don't fully understand what the word means!?) Have you ever seen street hustlers playing the shell game where they have 3 shells or bottle caps or avocado shells (those are the best).

Anyway, if you've ever seen anyone win at the shell game, you saw a shill win at the shell game. In other words, the person you saw win was working for the person who was running the game while pretending to only be a participant in the actual game. The shill wins so that the sucker might believe that he, too, can win. Unbeknownst to the sucker, the shill has not won anything when he/she places a winning bet. Instead, the shill is only winning a percentage of the sucker's bet.

In the history of the shell game (unless idiots or people who ran out of shills were running it) no non-shill has ever won.

By calling me a shill, therefore, you are accusing me of working for potawatomi. That accusation is false.

Now, if you are accusing me of trying to promote a poker game within a realistic drive from my house in which I have a very good chance of winning roughly $60 to $100 per hour (right now it's closer to $1.75 per hour until TT let's me back on B&M and helps me create a legitimate sample size) then I am COMPLETELY AND 100% GUILTY!!! I have been completely open about my intention to promote the game from the get go and I think promoting such games should not only be allowed on the B&M forum, it should be encouraged. That, however, is not shilling. Shilling is much more devious and deceptive.

That's a good point. Like the pyramid scheme peddlers who were posting ad nauseum in the business and finance forum for a while (maybe they're still there. I haven't been there in a while.) I'm sure they were providing a tremendous service to themselves. hell maybe even a few others made some amway bank off of it.

So your point seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) that I'm no different from an amway peddler or a disguised bluff magazine representative or the stranger whose first post just so happens to read, "HEY, HAVE YOU READ THE GREAT NEW BOOK BY ANTONIO ESFANDIARI!!!!!?!???!!!!??!"


I think what separates me is the fact that, although I admittedly have self-interest involved (if you're gonna criticize this, find me someone who doesn't btw), I'm still providing information that people appreciate, find helpful, and is within the guidelines of what I view to be 2p2.com's mission statement in a nutshell. i.e. help poker players make money. Also, I'm not pretending to be someone other than a poker player trying to make money playing poker. The same can't be said about the actual shills who frequently participate on this web site.

By that do you mean, "i'm gonna lock this thread very soon."? I hope not but if it will save you some time and you pretty much have your mind made up already, I will tell you that I have no intention of leaving this thread alone. Where am i going??

By the way, jongalt, dsteff, and toonces, call me if you want to bet the over under on how long it takes for this thread to get locked.

dorf - wow. Just when i thought you couldn't get any more ridiculous or intentionally obtuse there you go again.
Everyone on this site is able to talk about the game they are interested in. And, to a certain extent, are able to promote that game somewhat.
You were crossing the line and were asked to stop SHILLING so much for that place by so frequently bumping your thread about it. Since you can't figure out how to do that the thread was locked and now you have been asked to stop.
So instead you actually make the situation worse by being weird and argumentative.

You probably woul have had every opportunity to continue in that thread if you had just said, "Yeah...I guess I was too much. I can see what you mean. Didn't mean to get so carried away promoting the game excessively like that. I would really like to continue to share the news of this game with other 2+2'ers though so let me know if I can be permitted to do that if I don't cross the line."

Seriously. It's not that hard. But instead you get hostile towards Mat somewhat instead of admitting that you were in the wrong (which you were).



From freaking Miriam Webster's dictionary:



There are multiple definitions for the word 'shill'.
It does not mean solely what your understanding of it is.
Since I posted the definition being used in this case I would think you would be able to get it by now.
Nobody is freaking accusing you of being paid by the casino or anyone else to promote it. They are saying that you are overly promoting the game...you are 'shilling' that game on the forums and it isn't welcome.

Sorry you aren't familiar with this definition of the word. But now you are...because I told you (again).

thedorf
banned

Join Date: May 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 589


LOL even after Mat told him to drop it he just couldn't. Bye dorf