Personal Attacks in Political Forums by Poobahs Mr Wookie, 5ive, goofybalef AoFrantic etc - Page 27 - About the Forums

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Personal Attacks in Political Forums by Poobahs Mr Wookie, 5ive, goofybalef AoFrantic etc

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06-21-2017 , 04:35 PM

#651

Zorkman

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6,341

Quote:

Originally Posted by well named

I think this is a disingenuous characterization of your position. You wrote:

Because I am a competent speaker of the English language, I was able to understand the implicit meaning of your simile, which is clearly this:

I didn't say your post was bigoted because it refused to place an adjective in front of the word Muslim. I am not demanding that you refer to all Muslims as moderate. I am objecting to the claim that all Muslims are extremists. You made this meaning clear first by using the KKK in your simile, as well as in the same post in which you now claim to have meant something else:

Here you are making explicitly the argument that all Muslims are extremists, on the basis of your opinion of the Quran, Muslims' treatment of women and gays, support for violence, or whatever else. So, your claim that you merely wish to avoid using an adjective is clearly false.

No. The claim is dehumanizing because you are refusing to recognize that members of this group of 1.5 billion human beings are not all identical, either in their beliefs or their practices. They are not all similar to KKK members in any way. Your insistence that no adjectives may be used alongside the word "Muslim" serves the purpose of erasing the individual existence of each member of the group, as well all the differences between them. This type of tactic -- reducing individuals in a group to the value attached to the group label -- has been explored in various sociological and psychological literature about dehumanization and acts of violence. It's the connection between this kind of reductive thinking and discrimination and violence towards members of certain groups that is problematic. I say your claim is bigoted both because it's false (not all Muslims are alike; being Muslim is not a simple state of affairs like being pregnant) but also because it relies on this dehumanizing rhetorical strategy.

Note that I think this kind of rhetorical strategy can be problematic when used to describe "all Republicans", or "all Trump voters" too, although the specifics matter. Not all generalizations are false, or dehumanizing, of course, and not all patterns of over-generalization in political discourse are as likely to lead to acts of violence. But, taking into account the recent shooting of Scalise, as well as the rise of other hate crimes (against Muslims for example) it's something to be concerned about. I don't think you can claim to care about civility in discourse while demanding the right to falsely characterize a billion people as extremists.

OK, so you're saying Muslims are Muslims. Glad we can agree on that.

Moving on now...

*skips away merrily*

06-21-2017 , 04:37 PM

#652

Zorkman

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6,341

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

It is nonsense to go on a wild goose chase on behalf of a months' old grudge of an exiled troll.

Yes, but there but for the grace of Wookie go I.

06-21-2017 , 04:38 PM

#653

Zorkman

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 6,341

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahbahmickey

Like a lot of most liberals, wookie is quick to form an opinion about a person and put them in a box that they may not belong by saying conservatives are quick to form an opinion about a person and put them in a box that they may not belong.

fyp there partner

*hat tip*

06-21-2017 , 04:40 PM

#654

TimmayB

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,054

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadwaySushy

A left-wing poster makes an unsubstantiated allegation against a conservative and when asked for evidence refuses to provide evidence. The mod then takes his side and condones his refusal to provide evidence.

This would be true if the allegations were unsubstantiated. Unfortunately for you, conservatism and racism/bigotry being highly correlated is a matter of objective fact. Add that to your 1800 post history and it is not in any way, shape, or form an allegation. It is a fact.

06-21-2017 , 04:41 PM

#655

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Regardless of it being true or not, how is it relevant to this thread, exactly?

06-21-2017 , 04:46 PM

#656

TimmayB

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 12,054

Because this thread is essentially racists and bigots and people who enable them complaining about being called racists and bigots.

It's like calling me short or bald - it's just something I am. Don't see me whining about it tho.

06-21-2017 , 04:52 PM

#657

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

LOL. This is hilarious. These guys just can't help themselves.

06-21-2017 , 04:53 PM

#658

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorkman

OK, so you're saying Muslims are Muslims. Glad we can agree on that.

Moving on now...

*skips away merrily*

Earlier, you wrote this (emphasis added):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorkman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Original Position

I think this is pretty fair. If you are a conservative and care about making P or P7 more open to conservative ideas, then the best thing you can do is present your ideas in a winsome manner. This means you have to eschew trolling, complaining about how things are unfair, insulting others and so on. It also means presenting your ideas in a thoughtful manner and responding to people's objections seriously. These would be the markers of a good faith effort to make the politics forums more open to conservatives.

Again, this is what I want...

Do you think that your last post to me satisfies the bolded part of OrP's suggestion? Do you think your claim that you were only asking for the right to say "Muslim" without using an adjective is an example of you making a good faith effort to engage in political discussion?

06-21-2017 , 04:59 PM

#659

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmayB

sure, it's an intractable issue though: you refuse to believe broadwaysnowflake is anything but a racist and him refusing to believe there's evidence that could prove you right (with you refusing to provide any evidence)

So why keep harping on this and going in circles? It's a nice derail from the dialogue we were starting to have and it certainly lets broadwaysnowflake off the hook to go back to nonstop trolling, but it doesn't make this thread interesting or useful.

06-21-2017 , 05:05 PM

#660

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

There is no evidence period. But I disagree that it's a derail. As a matter of fact it's perfectly appropriate to the discussion.

Last edited by BroadwaySushy; 06-21-2017 at 05:17 PM.

06-21-2017 , 05:25 PM

#661

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

I don't doubt that. As I've said before, if that evidence existed, it would have been removed by a mod, so only a mod would be able to look at your infractions and see if any were related to racism.

Your posting history is basically what you've accused clovis of though, just a lot of no-content trolling, which is why I assume you were eventually exiled.

I'm still curious what the conservative posters in this thread think would be the rule to change that would allow conservativism to flourish on this forum.

Here again are the main rules, for anyone who can't access them:

Quote:

1. Attack the argument, not the arguer. This includes calling a user a troll, or announcing that you have or are putting someone on ignore. Having your opinion, claim or argument challenged, doubted or dismissed is not attacking the arguer.

2. Don't be a troll.

3. Don't post conspiracy theories or other unsupported hyperbole. Any non-obvious claim about the world should be supported by empirical evidence and an appropriate, reputable citation. The less obvious and/or more radical the claim, the higher the standard will be for supporting evidence and citations. Claims of facts that are refuted by available evidence or that cannot be verified at all have no place in this forum. That includes birther stuff. Birther posts will result in a permaban.

4. No broad-brush attacks on opposing political parties or ideologies

5. No calling for a thread to be locked or for other moderation, and do not criticize moderation decisions in this forum. Use the mod notification button to get a mod's attention, PM a moderator to discuss his modding, or, only AFTER trying the above, PM an admin or go to ATF.

6. Keep posts substantive, particularly new threads. Low-content or off-topic banter belongs in the LC thread or in a designated chatter thread on the subject. Standards here are subjective. If a poor thread was closed that you would like to make a substantive contribution to, PM a moderator with your contribution, and the thread may be reopened.

7. Site-wide rules apply here, as everywhere
-- No spam
-- No begging
-- No linked NSFW* stuff without the link being tagged NSFW
-- No linked porn
-- No wishing death on other posters.
-- No Trainwrecking
-- No filesharing discussion
-- No discussion of methods to break laws, encouragement to break laws, etc.
-- No plagiarism
-- No racism/anti-semitism/etc.

For the record, only 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 seem to be routinely enforced on either side of the political spectrum.

06-21-2017 , 05:51 PM

#662

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

I don't doubt that. As I've said before, if that evidence existed, it would have been removed by a mod, so only a mod would be able to look at your infractions and see if any were related to racism.

Your posting history is basically what you've accused clovis of though, just a lot of no-content trolling, which is why I assume you were eventually exiled.

I'm still curious what the conservative posters in this thread think would be the rule to change that would allow conservativism to flourish on this forum.

Here again are the main rules, for anyone who can't access them:

For the record, only 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 seem to be routinely enforced on either side of the political spectrum.

I can see my infraction history and I can assure you there are no infractions or bans for racism.

I will provide evidence if requested. (unlike some other people around here)

06-21-2017 , 05:53 PM

#663

Mat Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 10,073

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmayB

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimmayB

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadwaySushy

LOL. This is hilarious. These guys just can't help themselves.

Mr Sushy,

this isn't really a thread about politics, but if it was, this would be a great opportunity to address this statement: "conservatism and racism/bigotry being highly correlated is a matter of objective fact."

i'm not trying to pile on, but it seems like you have a chance to rise above the fray.

ps: i am not here to discuss my own opinion of the quote, so don't bother asking. i am curious about other informed opinions, however. how Rand Paul would answer that, for instance, and how would his answer be different from Jeff Sessions' or Ben Carson's?

06-21-2017 , 05:58 PM

#664

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadwaySushy

I can see my infraction history and I can assure you there are no infractions or bans for racism.

I will provide evidence if requested. (unlike some other people around here)

Okay, so someone said something that was wrong about you in ATF. Now what?

And what rules should be changed iyo that are needlessly strangling the ability of conservatives to post in P main?

06-21-2017 , 05:58 PM

#665

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

Your posting history is basically what you've accused clovis of though, just a lot of no-content trolling, which is why I assume you were eventually exiled.

The sheer hypocrisy. You and kerowo are hilarious in your disingenuous and unabashed hypocrisy. You both should be ashamed of yourselves.

06-21-2017 , 06:02 PM

#666

formula72

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,113

Mat, you have incredible patience. Do you have kids?

06-21-2017 , 06:03 PM

#667

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,183

I'm really curious what you think I'm being hypocritical about?

06-21-2017 , 06:03 PM

#668

kerowo

lolcat

Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 37,183

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula72

Mat, you have incredible patience. Do you have kids?

I think he just drinks

06-21-2017 , 06:05 PM

#669

well named

poorly undertitled

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 78,085

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

I think he just drinks

Works for me

06-21-2017 , 06:08 PM

#670

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib

Okay, so someone said something that was wrong about you in ATF. Now what?

And what rules should be changed iyo that are needlessly strangling the ability of conservatives to post in P main?

Changing the rules is perhaps not required. What is necessary is fair, equal and unbiased application of the rules.
How that is enforced exactly, I'm not sure. Maybe have one mod from each side of the political divide.

06-21-2017 , 06:10 PM

#671

Mat Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 10,073

Quote:

Originally Posted by formula72

Mat, you have incredible patience. Do you have kids?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

I think he just drinks

no kids. beer is good.

patience came from this job. i've been practicing trying to see everyone's perspective for fourteen years, now.

06-21-2017 , 06:12 PM

#672

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerowo

I'm really curious what you think I'm being hypocritical about?

I'm not sure if it's just your incredible lack of self-awareness or you are just being deliberately obtuse.

06-21-2017 , 06:16 PM

#673

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky

beer is good.

06-21-2017 , 06:18 PM

#674

Loki

binary duo

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 12,772

Quote:

Originally Posted by BroadwaySushy

I'm not sure if it's just your incredible lack of self-awareness or you are just being deliberately obtuse.

You routinely complain about others not backing up their claims with evidence, pretty hypocritical for you to engage in the same behavior.

06-21-2017 , 06:23 PM

#675

BroadwaySushy

banned

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 3,237

Well, you know. If you can't beat them, may as well join them.

You can only bash your head against a brick wall for so long.

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