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03-27-2020 , 12:19 AM

#151

Mat Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 10,101

Mason can elaborate if he likes, but this saves us money. As far as other complaints about the design, we're already processing your feedback and the new ui will be changed as needed/ wanted.

The only question is how much will be changed before and after we open up. Any specific requests people have should be posted here. But I know that whatever we do in the next week, there will still be more to improve as we proceed

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03-27-2020 , 12:24 AM

#152

Kiera

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 573

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregorio

But of course every time I look at it I change it. That's the problem with the responsive design. It's hard to know when to stop adjusting for different widths

Agreed on the left margin and fixed - but yes, could futz around with the rest forever. lmk if this works for now.

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03-27-2020 , 12:31 AM

#153

the pleasure

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6,872

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

You guys wanna laugh?

https://vanillaforums.com/en/plans/

"Flexible pricing from $689 to $10,000 per month"

It's cloud-hosted, you see. So Vanilla hosts it for you, taking away both your control of your own data and your reasonable cost.

Vanilla is perhaps the right solution for huge companies such as EA which don't feel like getting into the forum business. They just want to pay a company to run it for them, and that's that, even if it's overpriced.

They're a horrible solution for a company which is best known for BEING a forum.

Pretty shocked that Mason signed off on this.

I assume VB 5 or watever latest version is 2x that cost,

which is ridiculous on vbulletins end with forums dying.

just sucks all around.

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03-27-2020 , 12:33 AM

#154

gregorio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 37,572

Quote:

Originally Posted by chopstick

Why don't we just do that? No one cares what is under the hood. What is stopping that solution from keeping things looking exactly the same? Make Oreo do it.

(I like the Vanilla look a lot better than something like this)

Last edited by gregorio; 03-27-2020 at 12:41 AM.

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03-27-2020 , 12:35 AM

#155

NickMPK

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 11,985

I don’t care much about the look, but can you jump to new posts in a thread? I didn’t see that in any of the examples, but it might just be because I wasn’t signed in to the example forums. Without the feature, the forum is like 80% unusable.

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03-27-2020 , 12:35 AM

#156

RoundGuy

banned

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

Pretty shocked that Mason signed off on this.

Mason runs a business. When was the last time you sent a check to 2+2?

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03-27-2020 , 12:36 AM

#157

Kilowatt

banned

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by the pleasure

I assume VB 5 or watever latest version is 2x that cost,

which is ridiculous on vbulletins end with forums dying.

just sucks all around.

vb5 is $249 one time.

They claim cloud hosting is $15+ per month.

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03-27-2020 , 12:37 AM

#158

whatthejish

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 11,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Really? Really. You think 2+2 is "entirely based" on "community input"?

Really.

Wow.

The FORUMS are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat Sklansky

Mason can elaborate if he likes, but this saves us money.

Was that so hard? Just be straightforward.

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03-27-2020 , 12:40 AM

#159

RoundGuy

banned

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthejish

The FORUMS are. Y’know, the thing being changed.

You think your posts make money? Dude, how old are you, like, 12?

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03-27-2020 , 12:42 AM

#160

gregorio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 37,572

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickMPK

Pretty sure clicking on the thread title takes you to first unread.

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03-27-2020 , 01:18 AM

#161

chopstick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9,157

Vanilla marketing materials explicitly state that you can

Quote:

Override Vanilla's CSS to make it look exactly like your website.

so just do that. No harm, no foul. As long as we can't tell there was a change, no one will mind.

Oreo, get on that.

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03-27-2020 , 01:25 AM

#162

gregorio

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 37,572

Sorry I can't read that on my phone because it's not responsive

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03-27-2020 , 01:35 AM

#163

whatthejish

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 11,513

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

You think your posts make money? Dude, how old are you, like, 12?

First, you act like I’m talking about 2+2 the company when I’m taking about the forums. Then, you act like I’m talking about money when I’m not.

You’re arguing a point that I’m not trying to make.

There’s no reason for a FORUM, which is based around community input, to make such a change without community input.

Financial reasoning makes sense, but we didn’t know that because they didn’t communicate as such initially.

Last edited by whatthejish; 03-27-2020 at 01:43 AM.

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03-27-2020 , 01:53 AM

#164

RoundGuy

banned

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,237

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthejish

First, you act like I’m talking about 2+2 the company when I’m taking about the forums. Then, you act like I’m talking about money when I’m not.

There is no difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthejish

Financial reasoning makes sense, but we didn’t know that because they didn’t communicate as such initially.

That's because the financial aspects of 2+2 aren't your concern.

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03-27-2020 , 01:58 AM

#165

Mat Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 10,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist

This post is why I'll reserve judgment until the migration is complete. If the new site looks like that Battlefront forum, I can live with it just fine. But yeah, the default look is pretty rough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the pleasure

damn.

is it a money issue?

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthejish

my mistake. it is also my understanding that this forum software is doomed and why i say we have no choice. but yes, money was part of that equation for us.
.
and finally, while we did not seek input from users about where we are moving, we are and will continue to seek input about the user experience on this site from the users.

roundguy is just ornery. he's been away for a long, long time.

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03-27-2020 , 02:43 AM

#166

chopstick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 9,157

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03-27-2020 , 02:45 AM

#167

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

I'm very confused by this, even having read Chuck's explanation.

I also run a vBulletin version 4 forum. Granted, my forum is smaller and has less traffic than 2+2, but that isn't really relevant here.

I'm not thrilled that vBulletin is no longer supported with security/PHP version updates, but I see no reason to switch. The software is stable, and there aren't any known major security flaws at the moment.

Also, they have a version 5 of vBulletin, which IS supported. Why not buy that instead? I'm not doing it because it will clobber my custom mods, but I would 100% do that upgrade over switching to this Vanilla garbage.

You guys should really reconsider. Seems like the new software is universally hated.

Our understanding is that vBulletin 5, with all the customization that we require, will make it difficult for vBulletin to work with us.

Mason

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03-27-2020 , 02:52 AM

#168

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

You have no understanding of what our current expenses are and there's no way your opinion can have any meaning without that understanding.

For example, we use Rackspace for many things that you're not aware of.

MM

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03-27-2020 , 02:57 AM

#169

Kilowatt

banned

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth

You're correct that I have no understanding of what your expenses are. It's easy to waste money on IT expenses. There's huge variance in how much value one gets for their money, based upon a number of variables (including ability to shop around properly).

I also have no understanding of why this solution is going to replace your Rackspace usage for these mysterious needs.

I do have a good idea of what a forum like this would cost to host on your own, given current traffic levels.

In any case, thank you for your usual curmudgeonly response to me. I was wondering when you'd happen by this thread to provide it.

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03-27-2020 , 03:15 AM

#170

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,583

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

Perhaps you're right and I could use a person like you. Are you available to be hired?

Mason

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03-27-2020 , 03:27 AM

#171

Morphismus

BBV Poker Player of 2022

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 25,424

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03-27-2020 , 03:36 AM

#172

eddymitchel

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 6,610

Twoplustwo is the last forum I still use more than once a month. V bulletin was one reason. Your CSS could have been improved but it's super functional. That kind of change could kill the forum.

Please keep a navigation bar on the side. Twoplustwo is so big that it's a feature that would be super missed and make the new forum a pain.

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03-27-2020 , 06:28 AM

#173

EastCoastBalla

banned

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 1,765

Quote:

Originally Posted by whatthejish

Imagine owning something entirely based on community input, then abruptly changing the entire format without any community input.

Ironic huh?

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03-27-2020 , 06:34 AM

#174

EastCoastBalla

banned

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 1,765

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kilowatt

I'm not shocked. This site has gone way downhill in recent years. Remember when the Coronavirus started to really dominate the headlines here Mason started a thread that was titled something like, 'We found a cure' or 'There is a cure'? Thread was so bizarre and for the first time I could remember a thread started by Mason was locked.

So maybe you shouldn't be so surprised he signed off on it. This doesn't seem to be the same Mason I once remembered when I would read and read this forum religiously back in the day.