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Old 10-22-2008, 12:49 PM   #1
Slim Pickens
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writing bots for fun and profit

Writing Super-Turbo bots for fun and profit

Cliffís Notes:
Beat: It got busted.
Brag: I wrote the poker brain for DeepComputer/TheFrenkel
Variance: I never used the thing anyway and never could have because lol($3.40)donkaments.


tl;dr version
Background
Zoo thread about people getting their accounts locked

Cast
  • The leaderÖ letís call him Josh. Josh lives in Israel and has not much but time on his hands. Heís a smart guy but so far a relatively unsuccessful poker player.
  • Me: Iím the poker player, because someone has to know something about playing SNGs. Iím also the teacher.
  • Other people I donít know.

Timeline
August 2007
Josh approached me for SNG coaching as most people do, through a PM on 2+2 asking what I charge and what exactly I do for coaching. I gave him my standard reply asking about his previous experience and ambitions for his SNG game.

Quote:
I have been reading some of your post lately. Really liked your review on the new SnG book by Collin Moshman. I started to play not long ago, I use the SngWiz, read all I can find, watched lots of the sngicons videos. I did a couching session with Collin, but I don't feel it help me a lot.
I was wondering if you have the time and energy to try and help me out?
After a few emails, he decided he wanted to get to where he could 8-table the $16-turbo level on Stars. Here I learn that ďTheFrenkelĒ is his first account on Full Tilt and ďDeepComputerĒ was a second one he created for rakeback. He seemed very serious about improving as poker offered a significant improvement to his financial prospects. Playing that level of SNG is fairly brainless and a good way to print some money, so off we went.

September-October 2007
Josh continued as a normal student. He seemed dedicated but suffered from the bankroll problems most people do: taking money out for expenses and not being able to move up. He asked the usual questions and I gave him the usual answers. Most of my coaching is very ICM-mathematics based. This is because SNGS are a solved game, and whoever makes the fewest mistakes wins the money. He paid me my usual fee for my coaching. He was definitely good enough to have accomplished his initial goal of 8-tabling the $16-turbo SNGs for a profit.

November 2007
Josh suggested writing a real-time advisor program to help him not make mistakes. I told him explicitly this was a T&C violation and it would be risky. I also told him the same thing I tell everyone who starts pushing me that way: ďI do not write code.Ē He said that was fine, that he had a team of code-people ready for that, one of whom was a first-year PhD mathematics student.

December 2007 Ė January 2008
Josh got back to me with what he claimed was a working version of his real-time advisor thing. I didnít really care because it is of no practical use to me. He then sent me the strategy guide he gave the programmers. This was something I could understand. He asked me to help him with it and agreed to take on his ďstudentĒ on a contract basis. I knew he was writing a real-time advisor and it was my job to develop the strategy to make it actually win. This is not very hard given the nature of SNGs if you understand them.

By the middle of January, I was looking through BASIC code and finding the leaks in this thingís game. Weíll call it DeepComputer for clarity, though that name is pretty lame to give to a poker bot for obvious reasons. The rest of the people involved were doing something like playing $23 turbos on FT and Stars. Josh was fully apprised of the risks he was taking and I could give a care about the moral implications of ďcheatingĒ in a $2 SNG. The greater challenge is actually making this thing work. Once it did, Josh and the others were off on their own and I got paid my ďcoachingĒ fee. We agreed to continue it on an ďongoingĒ basis, but not much happened for awhile because apparently you canít make much money at the $2 SNGs. Who knew?

As a sidenote, Josh had offered me a copy of the program in lieu of cash payment and I had refused on the grounds that itís completely useless to me. What good is risking getting my funds confiscated for the joy of cutting my hourly rate by a factor of three? SNGs may be solved, but itís still not easy to beat anything above the micro-stakes without some amount of human intervention.

February Ė May 2008
A lot of stuff gets done to DeepComputer. I revise a lot of the strategy. At this point, it goes from scraping results from various outside programs to being a self-contained Nash Equilibrium-based calculation engine. It was my idea to make it a stand-alone program because there a lot of important factors that are not accounted for in off-the-shelf IMC-based analysis software.


May 2008
Super-Turbos! The super-turbo structure starts with 10 BBs and lets the fun go from there. Initially, I didnít think these were beatable, but that turned out not to be true. A number of good SNG players expressed concerns this structure was was a slam-dunk for botting. No one important listened. Josh contracted me for some strategic tweaks in the program, which I gave him. He and the others went off to do their thing and I went back to whatever it is that I do.

July 2008
The DeepComputer account wins the low-limit SNG leaderboard. Normally, I wouldnít give these things much notice except that Josh was behind on his payment for the work I had done earlier. Iím fairly easy-going about students paying me. If they donít make money, thatís probably my fault anyway and I donít expect to get paid for not producing results. It is mostly just for my own entertainment anyway, but if I see someone is making money and owes me money, I expect to get paid. I get a little bit pissy with Josh and tell him Iím considering ratting him out for fun if he doesnít pay me. He finally pays me. I consider the matter settled and go back to whatever it is that I do. DeepComputer/TheFrenkel beats the super-turbos for about 7%, which I think is solid.

August 2007
DeepComputer/TheFrenkel gets busted. The primary reason for this is some really stupid multi-accounting/play patterns that triggered some sort of Full Tilt investigation. I doubt they went in looking for bots but thatís what they found. There were some other lazy/careless things on the programming side that would have stuck out as well. The bad thing is that a lot of innocent people got their accounts frozen in the process. Most of the successful super-turbo players are just very solid push/fold SNG players willing to put up with a low ROI for a huge number of tables/hr. To those of you caught up in Full Tiltís clumsy dragnet, Iím sorry. If Iíd known the investigation was going to suck that badly, I would have cut it short with all the info I knew at the time.

Figures


FAQ
Q: Did you ever use DeepComputer?
A: No.
Q: Why not?
A: It doesnít beat the games I play, and my hourly rate is 4x higher in those, so me actually using it would be pointless and counter-productive.

Q: In one sentence, why did you help write it?
A: I wanted to see if it would work.

Q: How does it work, exactly?
A: Iím not going to tell. The only thing Iíll say in that regard is that it was much simpler than I thought it needed to be to win at that rate.

Q: How much money was in the accounts?
A: Iím not sure. My guess is between DeepComputer and TheFrenkel maybe about $5k.

Q: Can I have a copy?
A: No. I donít have a copy of the actual software and all the development information I generated is proprietary. I use the same stuff to teach real players.

Q: Are the players still using it?
A: I donít know, I donít really want to know, and I doubt it based on how badly they botched the account management aspect last time. Anythingís possible I suppose.

Q: Youíre an a**h***.
A: Thatís not a question, Ambassador. I donít really care if people have a different opinion on the ethical implications of breaking the T&Cs of an online poker site.

Q: Why did it suck heads-up?
A: I guess because the apple never falls far from the tree? I donít know. Iím not even convinced it did suck and that finish distribution wasnít random or an artifact of playing correctly on the bubble.
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Old 10-22-2008, 12:55 PM   #2
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

You had a moral dilemma against using it, but you had no problem taking a cut of their winnings?
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:00 PM   #3
Rolon
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

I hope your account gets insta-banned and you lose a lot of money.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-23-2008 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:00 PM   #4
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

wow
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:01 PM   #5
adanthar
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

once in a while, I *still* have people asking me if my push/fold strat from 3 years ago that I wrote up in 2 hours works

brag: once in a longer while, somebody tells me they've tried it on [some Euro site] and it does
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:02 PM   #6
PEWWWW
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Lol im gonna tell a poker community how i cheat... lets see how they respond to it?

[ ] omg your so smart, you can make software to beat sngs

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-23-2008 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:02 PM   #7
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

I don't understand...your writing it as if we're going to say "alright, he is cool. he didn't actually cheat." Yes, you cheated and you contributed to harming the poker community/economy. not cool at all dude. Not cool.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:22 PM   #8
deathorglory0
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

wow it made $5000
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:23 PM   #9
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

lol
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:29 PM   #10
Tony Skaloni
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

its only cheating if you get caught. you got caught hence u are a cheater. although a smart one IMO
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:40 PM   #11
jmill
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolon View Post
I don't understand...your writing it as if we're going to say "alright, he is cool. he didn't actually cheat." Yes, you cheated and you contributed to harming the poker community/economy. not cool at all dude. Not cool.
No, I disagree.

Slim is very v smart. I don't think he started this thread expecting it to be well received or getting lots of praise.

Though I am surprised he started a thread on this in BBV.
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:42 PM   #12
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Man, that's really low. You KNEW he had two FT accounts?
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Old 10-22-2008, 01:46 PM   #13
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Quote:
Originally Posted by PEWWWW View Post
Lol im gonna tell a poker community how i cheat... lets see how they respond to it?

[ ] omg your so smart, you can make software to beat sngs
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by sputum View Post
Man, that's really low. You KNEW he had two FT accounts?

after 7k posts the OP still hasn't learned anything... amazing.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-23-2008 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:15 PM   #14
Slim Pickens
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

PEWWWW

For the record, I didn't start this thread so people would like me. Here's a better explanation of why I started this thread.

* It's important that everyone, especially Full Tilt Poker, know how easy it is to beat this particular SNG structure with a simple algorithm. A number of people expressed concern from the beginning this would happen and now I want to confirm it and expose it.

* Full Tilt's artificial intelligence detection sucks, apparently. I see this as a problem, though a solvable one. I doubt it's unique to Full Tilt.

* It is important to keep all poker games offered by poker sites true games of skill, and not degen gambling games that can't be beaten, to make a strong legality argument, at least in a lot of countries. I want to show that getting anywhere close to that line opens up this different-but-related problem of having the games so simplistic that an ideal strategy can be played by a simple algorithm, which is then easy to program a computer to do.

* My only regret was not ratting them out after they paid me. I got lazy.

Anyways, commence torch mob.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-23-2008 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:39 PM   #15
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Slim,

Obv we have history and i have a ton of respect for you. Some of this may have already been answered but i have a bad memory, forgive me

#1 - You knew your contributions were going to be used for botting?
#2 - 'You just wanted to see if it would work' - Would you have been willing to report this guy for botting to ftp once you confirmed it worked? He obviously wouldnt stop if you told him so.
#3 - Slim, or anyone else who plays the super turbos against this guy - can you screenshot or breakdown his stats to me ITT or privately in a pm if you prefer?
#4 - I recall you sticking up for the player in the intial thread, saying you coached him. If that is correct, and you knew he was botting, thats unfortunate
#5 - Do you think bots could win @ the 70s/169s?

Edited: The super turbos were a nightmare for this reason, and cater only to 'rakeback pros' as I like to call them. The only advantage other than to rakeback pros, is that they allow ftp to rake more, faster. Both super turbos and matrix sngs were dumb ideas by ftp, and they should have expanded on happy hour (which is successful imo) or expanded on iron man to make it similar to stars reward programs instead of cluttering the lobby.

On top of this, fulltilt support is REALLY lacking, and I feel I have done more work to get cheaters off ftp than their entire department this year. Its a truly depressing thought.

Last edited by Scotty_12; 10-22-2008 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:43 PM   #16
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

First off, I have a lot of respect for you. I am surprised about this, and have some questions I hope you will take the time to answer. I'm not interested in lynch-mobbing and I hope I don't come across that way.

Do you have any worries about Full Tilt taking action against you for knowingly assisting with, and profiting from, a real-time adviser?

Why did you take an active role in the DeepComputer investigation thread? Why did you act upset that a student of yours would do this?

If your motivation for posting this truly is to show how Super Turbos are bot-friendly, what do you think the chances are FullTilt will do anything about it?

Last edited by Beerocrat; 10-22-2008 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:45 PM   #17
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

wow OP. people like u destroy the games

Last edited by Mike Haven; 10-23-2008 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:47 PM   #18
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Cool story, thanks for sharing.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to make a 10bb shortstacking bot? With SNGs people change their ranges a ton as it gets shorthanded/huge blinds/bubble/etc. With 10bb cash you just CHOOCHOO and ship monies.
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Old 10-22-2008, 02:57 PM   #19
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

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Originally Posted by ImsaKidd View Post
Cool story, thanks for sharing.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to make a 10bb shortstacking bot? With SNGs people change their ranges a ton as it gets shorthanded/huge blinds/bubble/etc. With 10bb cash you just CHOOCHOO and ship monies.
I dnow, I would think with cash games people would catch on way faster with all the regs and datamining etc.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:03 PM   #20
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

I appreciate your honesty.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:08 PM   #21
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

[x] bots play better than me
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:18 PM   #22
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

This isnt just a TOS violation, and thats pretty scummy.

If they werent winning bots they wouldnt be able to pay you(you said yourself you arent even trying to collect if theyre losing) thus it affected your bottom line albeit small. Thats pretty dissapointing coming from you.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:18 PM   #23
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

Slim I have a fair amount of respect for you from STTF, but the way you portrayed and conducted yourself in the zoo thread was misleading pretty scummy. According to your timeline you not only knew DeepComputer/TheFrenkel was a bot that you participated in by advising its builders on optimal strategy, but you also had already been receiving payments for your services.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
Anyone else getting popcorn? This smells of some serious BS on FT's part. I know of at least one other player in the exact same spot as the rest of you guys, and I'm really hoping for the benefit of everyone FT gets this fixed soon. My $0.02 is that neither collusion nor botting in SNGs looks like what most people think it looks like.
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I'm pretty sure DeepComputer is not a bot.
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Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
I agree this looks really weird, especially since I've done a fair amount of coaching for DeepComputer and everything I've seen has looked just like most of my other students. I saw plenty of mistakes that a NE-based bot wouldn't make, but that's only useful for saying that the hand history I looked at was not played by a bot. We did discuss a fair amount about exactly what NE does and how it is useful, but again, I do that with most of my students.

It's my opinion that a pure NE strategy couldn't beat even the super-turbos, but that's just an opinion and a fairly uninformed one at that. Remember that if everyone plays that way, everyone's ROI is -9% or whatever the rake is. I can play pretty close to NE myself when it is appropriate, but someone with a NE calculator would see the divergence between NE and proper strategy pretty quickly.

I don't want to post too much about NE stuff as it relates to bots for obvious reasons, but it would be an exceedingly simple but horrifically tedious matter to reconstruct whether or not you were looking at a pure NE bot from a few hundred histories. Seems like now I want to go back through the hand histories I reviewed and see what's there. Offhand I would think I could "prove" a negative for a bot, since obviously all I can say is "The hand histories I have were not played by a bot for xyz reasons," and that clearly isn't very many of the total played. Anyways, I'll take a look probably Tuesday, but I doubt anything interesting will turn up.
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Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
I would definitely like the people involved who have 2 accounts for the purpose of rakeback to come clean about it. You're not going to get to keep the 2nd account, per Full Tilt's super-lame, but consistent, policy. If you have two accounts, they close all but the first one and send the money back to that account. You usually get it back after the arcane "investigation" entity gets done with their Keystone Cops impression. That takes between three weeks and forever.

As far as what has been found as evidence of botting, it seems to vary widely from pretty credible to pure speculation, and definitely some of the points people bring up are complete bunk. Finding people with the requisite knowledge of SNGs and computer programming/botting while also having them accessible to the 2+2 community seems difficult, but not impossible.

Jukofyork and apefish, do you mind having some private discussions with me about what I know? I have a pile of hand histories from DeepComputer/TheFrenkel that I'm still 100% sure were a human player. I will probably need an explanation of what all that computer output is, but similar to the tone of the Luck Analyzer thread, I don't want to get into posting publicly things that could be used botters, but also have legit game analysis applications.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
Well, PM sent to my unofficial 2+2 investigative team.

Cliff's Notes from what I think is neither proprietary nor an aid to bot-builders:
I have a lot (7k or so) tournament summaries. I've actually looked through maybe 300 of them. All of those were played when I was coaching him Sept-Nov of 2007. The ones I only looked at in bulk, including 6k super-turbos, show mistakes that are pretty typical of other people I've coached at that level. All of my coaching to all of my students is very heavy on theory and computation/analysis methods for push/fold decisions, and his was no exception.

Anyways... we'll see what happens I guess. At least some people are getting their accounts unlocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
I think that's pretty consistent with someone quitting a job and playing poker full-time instead of part-time, which is how I understand things to have actually happened.


Stop right there... this sort of speculation is exactly why a lot of innocent people got accounts locked. Arguments like "no one can play 4 tables at once, so that is how I know this person is cheating" are simply grain for the rumor-mill and we shouldn't feed it. If you suspect some kind of account sharing, the best thing to do would be to save the relevant Sharkscope files and figure out how to process them to show one person couldn't have been playing both accounts, and have a way to show some sort of connection between the two accounts, like at a minimum a credible witness who says they are the same person.

In this case, no credible evidence of botting showed up until the coding stuff, which I don't understand but people who know better say looks like it could be bot-related. The threads on railbirds, SNGIcons, and the FT forum all contained the same BS that you, as volume SNG player, ought to know gets flung at legitimate winning players.

* You are a bot because you can play 4 tables at the same time!!!!, sometimes even more!!!!!!
* You are a bot because one time you pushed 73o from the SB and I called with KTo and you sucked out."
* You are a bot because I wirote "ZOMG YOU SUCKZOR SO BAD!!!" in the chat in you didn't respond or even acknowledge my witty remark.



+1

Locking accounts without an email to say "FT Poker support locked your account because we are investigating something," is the minimum FT can do to demonstrate some basic level of professionalism. I don't think players have the "right" to know any more than FT has the "right" to have me play on their site. If an account that turns out to be innocent is locked, I would imagine the first thing the player thinks when they get "password incorrect, fu" is that some hacker broke in and is in the process of stealing their money. When the inevitable frantic emails to support go unanswered, it seems like people take that as a confirmation of their worst fears. If the account owner is guilty, they know damn well why their account got locked and can immediately begin planning the "weaseling" stage of "breaking the rules and trying to weasel out of it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
I like how they don't even know what a "bot" is, but they just know they want one really, really bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Pickens View Post
DeepComputer is a student of mine. He is not a bot. He plays Super-Turbos.

Here is a thread. It looks dumb.
http://www.railbirds.com/blog/191478...pcomputer.html

The accusations are:

1) He plays a lot of tables.
2) He plays very quickly.
3) He wins.

I believe those can be attributed to:
1) A lot of people can play a lot of tables. 16-tabling isn't that exceptional anymore.
2) He uses the nanochip AHK scripts to play from the keyboard, same as I do and same as a lot of people do.
3) I coach him, so of course he wins.



You make all of these statements after you were paid for advising the builders of the ****ing bot.

As someone who spent a decent amount of time trying to uncover the truth behind TheFrenkel/DeepComputer, all the while you spewed your bull**** in that thread, **** you.
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Old 10-22-2008, 03:21 PM   #24
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

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Old 10-22-2008, 03:24 PM   #25
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Re: writing bots for fun and profit

haha all that work just for 5k... i don't work that hard in a month for that much
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