HJ is a horrible, super-fishy just extremely bad player.
CO Villain is a 2+2 lurker.

6-handed, HJ opens, villain 3-bets in CO, I cap in SB, BB folds, HJ and villain call.

Flop: Q64 (3 players, 13 sb)
I bet, HJ calls, villain raises, I think a bit and call, HJ calls.

Turn: J (3 players, 9.5 bb)
I think a bit and check, HJ checks, villain checks.

Start naming some hands that villain should play this way.

Kinda depends on how much he thinks you are re-isoing him.

But somewhere around Ah6/4x, QxXh, PP no heart, thats about it in the should camp.

Personally I am betting most of the hands that dont have outs and checking some with showdown value + outs.

With HJ being horrible the Villains range can be pretty wide pf, as he had position etc, however post flop I feel he should be playing fairly straightforwardly in thsi big/drawy pot.

There's not a single hand he played well imo.

If he had something like black tt it wouldn't be super horrible.

I think there are a fair number of medium pocket pairs in his range preflop, and a lot of those that are smaller than the Q onboard are at least defensible, although I think his flop raise is thin unless he views you as particularly foldy. If he does raise this flop with 88-TT I can see him checking through the turn unless he hits, he's basically done with putting money in the pot unimproved vs. 2 players.

I guess something like A4 or A6 with a heart is possible too, though I just don't see why he wouldn't peel one cheaply on the flop. He can't expect to get a free card often at all so he's just charging himself.

Maybe he's got a monster like AQhh and doesn't want anyone to fold? Dumb too.

i've taken villain's line in the past when i have a strong one pair hand with one heart.

Why would any of these check the turn if they're raising the flop? If they're not raising for value, why are they raising the flop?

This was my initial thought. So either he had some sort of sick read on me on the flop/turn, or he misplayed his hand.

What does me being foldy have anything to do with a flop raise with a medium pp? Is he trying to bluff me off JJ/TT with 88/99?

This makes no sense to me. Either he is raising the flop for value which is sorta defensible, and needs to bet the turn, or he shouldn't have raised the flop in the first place.


Like what, TT/99 with a heart? Why wouldn't you bet the turn then? It sure doesn't seem like anyone has a pair of Queens+.

You have JJ, villain has KK and just owned you.

With something like Ah6/4x or a PP<QQ that hasnt hit a set, Villain may think he is ahead on the flop so raises for value. Now a prett ****** card turns, not only is it an overcard but also completes a 'scarey' draw.

Of course this is based on the read of 2+2 lurker so I'm assuming he knows a thing or two about poker. Had the read been 2+2 playing/posting superstar then the ranges would be different.

Half right. I had JJ, villain did not have KK.

My son has a Transformer that talks and says "Ownage -- total ownage" in a little kids' voice when you press on his head. I'm going to bring it to the next 2+2 meetup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiyDvSfQSk0

This happens when you fail to go ******* on the flop. He has a pair without a heart; a big one probabaly.

I suck so bad. I thought there were 4 hearts and you flopped a set forget what I said.

No way am I checking through this turn with 88. SB 2p2'er's PF range against my LMP fish-iso-raise from the CO is maybe something like 77+, AJo+, ATs+, KQs, and MAYBE something like KJs or 55 and 66, though depending on what kind of fish he is and how SD bound he is KQs could easily be a fold. Are you seriously raising the flop, not getting 3bet by SB, and checking thru a Jh turn with TT? That seems absolutely horrible. I'd expect SB to fold lower pocket pairs without a heart and maybe some with, depending on what he's feeling about me and how things look left. He should pretty much always be 3betting the flop with any hand that beats QJ, so that leaves lower pocket pairs as made hands and some u/i A-highs that either picked up a combo draw and will call, didn't and will fold, or made 2nd pair which will probably call with or without a heart. And given that my range here when I bet the turn is almost entirely made hands, I'd expect him to c/f the river the vast majority of the time u/i, except maybe calling with AJ, as I'll be checking through my lower pocket pairs, and continuing betting with AQ/KQ/QJ/QT/etc and flushes. So obv I'm betting all my hands and getting him to fold 88 with a heart or whatever when I have AK with a heart or a random 55 or who knows what. The depths of creativity know no bounds when you're playing with fish or predictables in the pot. Anyways, I think checking this turn through with any hand, especially a made one, is absolutely terrible. With TT? That's just tragic.

Same thing here.

It's a good thing you quit drinking, I'd hate to see what your response would look like when you're drunk.

I play thats way hands 75s, 35s, AKh, 77-TT (no heart) and some random spaz hands.
Anyone who checks "strong one pair no heart" hand on this board SUCKS!!!!!!!!

TT - 88

3rdCR: solid reply, touche sir.

i was *just* thinking this when i started reading replies. literally said "black tens?" out loud

I don't like the flop raise with TT.

EDIT: Would villain 3-bet 75s? If so, that's a likely way to play it post-flop.

A third heart hit the turn which reduces raiseable. Combos of 75 more than usual

Only hand I'd raise flop and check this turn is 8d7d, 75s if I somehow had 3bet. If you're a beast and had some sick read on the Captain having JJ, checking KK would be beastly.

I keep thinking that this is the wrong problem to solve. Villains don't necessarily play hands the way they 'should' play them; they play them the way they do play them, often making horrible mistakes that we can exploit.

For example, in the games I play, it would not be unusual for one of the 'good' players to show up with AX or KX, complete with turn check. It's a horrible mistake, but they do it all the time.

Wut? The purpose of this thread isn't to try to figure out how to exploit villain. IMO, there's no hand that he should play this way (barring 75s, which he probably doesn't 3-bet pre). Based on that, and based on that he plays/wins in bigger games than me, I want to see if I'm missing something.

I'm not trying to figure out how to get villain's money. I'm trying to see if there's something I need to learn here.

Against such a bad player CO can 3-bet with a lot of decent but not great hands like KQ and QT that have a lot of equity on the flop but look awful on this particular turn. And given that you hesitated both on the flop and on the turn before your action could be reason enough to tread carefully. Hell I live in NY and whenever I see one of your posts I tread carefully...

And if he knows your game and believes you can cap wider than TT+, AK then PP's like TT and 99 become viable call down options withthis flop and look a lot worse against the random HJ opening hands once the J hits.


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

12,928,364 games 11.485 secs 1,125,673 games/sec

Board: Qd 6h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.437% 49.13% 01.31% 6351341 169751.00 { KsQs }
Hand 1: 30.449% 30.31% 00.14% 3918419 18368.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 19.114% 17.66% 01.46% 2283210 188124.50 { 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }


---

21,958,074 games 20.125 secs 1,091,084 games/sec

Board: Qd 6h 4h Jh
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 29.875% 29.12% 00.75% 6394989 165332.50 { KsQs }
Hand 1: 42.616% 42.45% 00.17% 9321618 36468.00 { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 27.508% 26.59% 00.92% 5838793 201802.00 { 77+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }