you're playing a mid stakes live game, which at the moment is playing loose passive and pretty much out of sshe.

there are 5 limpers, a laggy guy raises, you look down at QTo in the SB. the BB is loose/horrible.

what do you do and why?

if you're folding, are you calling with any other offsuit broadways? what if the pf raiser was a tag. what if he's loose passive? a nit? does it matter much?

the reason i bring this up is because this forum has taught me to call liberally from the BB in multiway pots, but nit it up from the SB. As a beginning strategy this seems good, but i'm just wondering if you can move beyond this once you become confident with your postflop skills.

for example, in the hand i just mentioned, modify things so that we were in the BB and there were 3 limpers, then the raise, the sb folds and it's on us. getting 9-1 we have a pretty easy call. now go back to the original situation and notice that the price we're getting in that 8way pot is actually better, it's a little over 9.5-1.

yet there's always been some sort of intrinsic difference in my mind (and lots of good posters imo) between being in the SB vs the BB, regardless of the price we're being offered. and this is why in the past i've been turbomucking in the situation described, but i'm not so sure anymore that it's correct.
what do you think?

Folding because I like money. I'd also fold KT and A9. I'm not folding AT or AJ. I would call QT in the BB. I have no logic to support these decisions.

with 5 limpers i'm insta calling QTo in the sb...don't know if this is bad or not.

with 3, i'm not sure.

I fold because domination is expensive. 9.5's calling range sounds about right.

I can't imagine calling being less than neutral EV unless you're gonna make mistakes postflop, even if someone could prove it is -EV, I'd still call because live is sofa king boring.

do you think calling with QTo in the small blind is worse than calling in the bb with 73o?

No, but probably not calling with 75o in the BB.

really? assuming the BB calls, which is close to certain, you're getting 15-1 out of the BB.

sounds almost like ATC territory imo

If you are almost certain the bb will either call or fold rather then 3bet, I call. I know there are alot of domination issues and such but the pot is huge and you are getting a slight discount to call.

Wat?

wtf, snap call imo

Make sure to scream out BROADWAY at showdown after you flop the nuts against slick.

[QUOTE=MitchL;13310253]Wat?[/QUOTE

unintentional double negative fwiw

I call for sure.

Assuming it gets checked to the raiser (ignoring the recent donking epidemic I've seen) you have a good opportunity to force the field to call two if you are so inclined. On the flip side, if you are drawing and want to call, you aren't in the best spot since someone could cr or everyone else fold, but in any case, getting 9.5-1 this seems to be an easy call.

You must be willing to fold after the flop and not get married to hands, though.

If someone tends to limp-3bet a lot, I might consider folding here, but prob not.

In the BB it is pretty much ATC imo

Rephrase to mean that I like calling with 75o in the BB better than I like calling with Q10o in the SB in this particular situation. Call me crazy,

I understand your concerns about domination issues but with the pot as big as it is you can can with ATC.

it's called the sandwhich effect. postflop, when the laggy guy bets, you are first to act on every street, and if u flop anything worthwhile, u usually end up c/r the entire field and lose a lot of value.

as for pf, just depends on how comfortable you are postflop.

I'm torn between "It's not an easy hand to play, and it's particularly tough to play out of position" and "the price is right." The player next to us is loose/horrible, so any fold equity there is in raising is implied, not immediate.

I feel like it's throwing money away no matter what one does, but one throws less money away by calling, so call.

I just did some stoving. I'm assuming the limpers are 25/5 so that, in limping, they are playing their best 25% with the very best 5% pulled out, and that the laggy raiser is raising with her best 20%. The big blind is playing ATC.

4,518,462 games 72.953 secs 61,936 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.335% 11.08% 01.26% 500481 57129.79 { 88-66, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, Q9s, J8s, T8s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 12.327% 11.07% 01.26% 500388 56867.38 { 88-66, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, Q9s, J8s, T8s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, JTo }
Hand 2: 12.316% 11.06% 01.26% 499904 56870.96 { 88-66, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, Q9s, J8s, T8s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, JTo }
Hand 3: 12.328% 11.08% 01.25% 500615 56696.13 { 88-66, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, Q9s, J8s, T8s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, JTo }
Hand 4: 12.343% 11.09% 01.26% 501204 56794.54 { 88-66, A9s-A2s, KJs-K6s, Q9s, J8s, T8s, AQo-A7o, K9o+, JTo }
Hand 5: 14.764% 13.50% 01.27% 609936 57467.04 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 6: 12.330% 11.72% 00.62% 529379 27996.79 { random }
Hand 7: 11.256% 10.43% 00.83% 471388 37471.37 { QTo }

QTo is very close to a 9:1 equity dog against these ranges. Getting 9.5:1 is a very slight overlay. (Against 7 random hands, QTo is an 85:15 dog (5.7:1)) so would be getting an overlay for any number of bets.)

The details are going to depend on how many of their best hands the limpers are going to limp with. The more of the top of their range they play, the worse off QTo is going to be; the lower down their range extends, the better of QTo is.

This suggests (not proves) that calling QTo in the SB here is close, and so considerations such as playability and position and our hero's postflop skills are going to play a role in the decision.