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08-31-2010 , 10:23 AM
I raise AQo from button. Villian 3! from SB. BB folds. I 4! (I will 4 with a wide range of hands in this situation). Villian 5!. I call 5 (I will always call a 5 in this situation if stack size is not an issue).

Flop KT3 rainbow. Villian bets. I call. Turn blank. Villian bets. I fold.

Please rate my decisions.

Villian is a good winning 20 player. Also a winning 40 player. Will almost always 3 bet from SB in this situation if villian decides to play. Villian is the type of player who will 3! from button with weaker hands like K9s or QTs depending on situation.
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08-31-2010 , 12:59 PM
I would not 4! pre. It may pass on a little value but I've come around on the idea that we can gain that value back by representing a wider range on the flop and feeling secure that villain will c-bet near 100%.

But let's ignore that for a second and assume that you have a wide 4! range. Villian must see your 4! range similarly so that he's not accurately judging your hand strength. But then if he does, he has to be betting the turn with QQ and JJ and your fold seems less justified.
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08-31-2010 , 01:06 PM
As played I fold, but I need much more information to rate your decisions.
1. What is the villain's range for 5-betting SB?
2. Does he know that you 4! with a wide range and always call 5!?
3. How likely if at all are you to get a free card if you raise the flop?
4. Can villain have AQ/AJ in this spot?
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
5. Why are you going crazy p/f against a good player?
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08-31-2010 , 01:17 PM
Looks ok to me.
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08-31-2010 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pohuist
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
5. Why are you going crazy p/f against a good player?
Don't 4bet preflop against this guy, and I don't like the fold on the turn after making the pot so big. You have a gutshot + small chance of having the same hand or the best hand + 6 outs to beat an overplayed pair like 99 or 88.

If I were the SB, and if I knew this is your line with AQ on this board, I'd start to challenge you pretty often.
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08-31-2010 , 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmofvision
...if stack size is not an issue...
I am interested in learning more about this concept???
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08-31-2010 , 07:05 PM
Stack sizes as in if villian 5! and has 1 or 3 SBs left. I will 6.

I do not think I am being "crazy p/f" vs a good players 3 bet range pf against a steal raise. I would put this particular players range at 22+, 78s+, A2o+, K9s, QTs, etc. AQo is pretty good against those hands especially with position.

Once villian 5 bets, I can narrow it down to 99+ (more likely JJ+), AQs+ (more likely AKo+).
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08-31-2010 , 07:38 PM
i feel like the extra postflop action you get by just calling his 3bet with your whole range more than compensates for the fraction of a small bet in equity you lose by not 4betting. just because you are ahead of his range does not mean that you should put in more action at that particular moment.
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08-31-2010 , 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmofvision
.I do not think I am being "crazy p/f" vs a good players 3 bet range pf against a steal raise. I would put this particular players range at 22+, 78s+, A2o+, K9s, QTs, etc. AQo is pretty good against those hands especially with position.
Then he is not that "good". This range is much too wide. (especially against a player whom he considers good and knows that he will get 4-bet wide). That changes the discussion.
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08-31-2010 , 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pohuist
Then he is not that "good". This range is much too wide. (especially against a player whom he considers good and knows that he will get 4-bet wide). That changes the discussion.
this range is not "much" too wide vs a BTN open by an aggressive good player, if it is too wide at all.
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09-03-2010 , 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munga30
I would not 4! pre. It may pass on a little value but I've come around on the idea that we can gain that value back by representing a wider range on the flop and feeling secure that villain will c-bet near 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty
i feel like the extra postflop action you get by just calling his 3bet with your whole range more than compensates for the fraction of a small bet in equity you lose by not 4betting. just because you are ahead of his range does not mean that you should put in more action at that particular moment.
I've generally seen this argument used when the hero is out of position: when hero opens, say in the hijack or cutoff and gets three-bet by the button, or when defending the big blind from a single raiser.

But here we are head-up in position. I think both our calling range and our four-betting range are wide enough that we don't lose too much in readability by putting in another bet here, when we are more ahead of the villain's range than we may be on the flop.

What's more, as played, four-betting gave the villain the opportunity to five-bet, narrowing their range considerably, and allowing us to play for the minimum post-flop.

In other words, I think OP played it just fine.
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09-03-2010 , 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBostick
I've generally seen this argument used when the hero is out of position: when hero opens, say in the hijack or cutoff and gets three-bet by the button, or when defending the big blind from a single raiser.

But here we are head-up in position. I think both our calling range and our four-betting range are wide enough that we don't lose too much in readability by putting in another bet here, when we are more ahead of the villain's range than we may be on the flop.

What's more, as played, four-betting gave the villain the opportunity to five-bet, narrowing their range considerably, and allowing us to play for the minimum post-flop.

In other words, I think OP played it just fine.
Yah I agree.
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