Reads:

Villain one is just kind of bad. He does strange things, like missing value with huge hands but also donking out with bad ones, and he plays way to many hands for way too many bets preflop but will raise good hands. Last time he donked the turn it was on a board of 974-9, he donked into 4 people, and he had a pair of fours...

Villain two is very tight (almost to a fault) and usually aggressive.

V1 open limps cause he's got some cards. V2 raises, I 3-bang next in with QQ. Everyone else folds, V1 takes 2 to the face cause the dealer hasn't taken his cards away, V2 calls only.

10 small bets, 3 hands

JJ6r

they both check to me and I bet. they bot call.

6.5 big bets, 3 hands

JJ64r

V1 donks, V2 calls, I raise, they both call.

JJ642

They both check, I bet.

This is completely standard right?

pretty standard

only other line is calling turn and raising most rivers

having V2 in the middle gives merit to raising now
he may just be drawing to his 6outter and fold the river UI
but if you raise him now you take him for another bet

what youre risking is when you get 3b you have to fold
without seeing the river or getting to showdown

waiting for the river to raise may prevent you getting 3bet from a better hand
a lot of villians will just call down at this point instead of raising once more

what youre risking waiting until the river to raise
is that when scare cards come on the river
you may miss a bet you couldve made on the turn

each line has its pros and cons but both are good for separate reasons

edit: nm misread action

After villain 2 calls on the turn I don't like my hand any more. He is tight and you obviously either have a jack or an overpair. There are no draws on this board.

It is possible he has a pp, 77 to TT. But I think more likely he has something like KJs, QJs, or even JTs. A smaller kicker like Q or T makes more sense since he didn't raise you on the turn.

you were right not to like your hand, and that's cause you were in third place. villain 1 had J7s and villain 2 had KK. so just call down maybe?

jesse i beleive youre being a little results oriented here

given that you raised the turn and were just called
theres no reason to think that your hand is not best on the river

once u raise the turn, betting the river is standard, but the turn raise is not standard. Standard is to call down, bet if checked to.

I don't know, given the reads I think raising the turn is fine if we can fold to a 3bet. OP said v1 will donk a wide range of hands and villain 2 could certainly be calling light w/hands like TT-88 knowing villain 1 will donk light. Raising the turn does have some value and I don't think it's wrong against this lineup. Absent a read, I agree w/playing showdown poker and calling the turn/river.

The only question here is the river bet and the only reason to question the river bet is that tight villain called the raise for which he should read you as QQ+ and fold hands like 88-TT. OTOH, villain 1 is completely ******ed and may pay off. You're getting 2:1 on your money when you bet and since its easy to fold to a c/r no reverse implieds. Its close on the river and at most you lost 1 bb you might not have had to.

"just called" ???


What does a player who is "tight to a fault" call a raise with, in a multi-player pot, with this board and the action so far? It will usually beat our queens, that's for sure. There are many hands beating us that will call but worry that they are behind, mainly a jack with a not so great kicker. I don't consider myself tight to a fault, but TT and 99 are like the only two hands that I could possibly have if I were villain 2, and I probably would have folded these when he raised the turn and villain 1 called.

BTW, how can I be results oriented when I don't know the results?

I posted the results right after your post...mahbad.

What happened here is that no matter how tight i thought V2 was, I couldn't give him credit for KK or AA since he didn't 4-bet preflop with overlay from a known losing player he had position on. I pretty much put him on exactly 99-TT or the other two Queens.

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

Well, from villain 2's perspective:

First, a play suggested in HPFAP is, when you have a strong player on one side and a fish to your other, keeping the fish in keeps the good player from getting too fancy on you. Second, he figures you will bet 100% of the flops and the weak player will peal light, thus he can check raise and get an additional bet out of each of you then. Or, if the board is draw heavy he can lead and hope that you raise him to knock out the first guy. The paired broadway on the board makes him change his plan. Now he is either way ahead or way behind and just lets you lead the action and keeps the third guy in paying off. There are no flush or straight draws that he needs to protect himself against. I like his play.

oh i liked how he played it post flop too...but i just thought he left too much equity on the table preflop with that move.