Hi Ryden:

Yours is an interesting post. In Las Vegas, it's my opinion that there are enough young players in the limit hold 'em games for the game to grow. But if that's not the case in many places outside of Las Vegas, then limit hold 'em would continue to shrink. So I wonder why limit seems to do better in Vegas than in some other places?

Best wishes,
Mason

Limit poker (above the smallest limits, like 2/4 or 3/6) has become a niche game, except in a few areas where it was already incredibly popular before the poker boom (LA), or where true NL games are not legal (MN, AZ, some parts of northern CA). Niche games do better in gambling destinations, where enough poker tourists combine with locals to make a big enough pool for bigger games to go.

Unfortunately this has been happening for a few years on the east coast, since casinos expanded beyond Atlantic City. There were a lot of middle limit holdem games in AC several years ago, but now that there is poker available in Delaware, Maryland, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania, the market has spread out and there is no critical mass anywhere to get the games going (except one or two tables in Philadelphia).

I remember talking with guys I playing 10/20 holdem in AC before the other markets started opening and being told by many that they would prefer to play their current game, but if the choice was between driving several hours to play 10/20 limit and only a half hour to play 1/2 no limit, they would play 1/2 close to home. So the expanded poker also has killed most of the middle limit holdem games in AC.

The demographics of rec players in midstakes LHE are quite a bit different from the equivalent sized NL game. This is a very important consideration IMO.

In cities outside of LA and LV where the game is spread regularly, most of your limit fish at the 20 or 30 level are going to be local small business owners. These people are regulars and have been playing for years, and they can afford the expected losses from their gambling habit. They are a steady source of money flowing into the game, even if it only goes a few times a week. The game will remain reasonably healthy and stable as long as enough winning/breakeven regs are around to start games and keep them going shorthanded if necessary.

Contrast this to the typical live 5-10 (or deep 2-5) NL lineup. There aren't many people steadily losing moderate amounts of money, no regular donors you can count on to build a decent and lasting game around a few times a week. What you get instead are a few whales who delight everyone when they show up, and a varying proportion of decent players and nitty donks who just don't lose enough to make the games attractive. It's much more of a feast or famine type of game.

The middle-class action players who drive a good 20 or 30 game generally can't afford to play the wide-open style they'd prefer in NL. It's very expensive to be a regular whale. I've often seen limit fish, when forced to play NL, either buyin small or retreat into their shells and play just like the nit-donk regulars who make most live NL games boring and miserable.

The situation chillrob describes above, with lack of critical mass killing games in the east, seems much less relevant in the west. I think it has something to do with the larger geographical separation between cities --- any city with a decent sized casino is a sort of "gambling destination" when surrounded by a few hundred miles of smaller towns and rural land. I wouldn't be surprised if within a few years, even Kansas City has better limit action than Foxwoods and Borgata put together.

Las Vegas is a special case. Because it is THE gambling destination and cost of living is low, there are zillions of locals who are at least decent at any common form of poker. So games will always survive as long as a steady trickle of tourists continue to want to play LHE at the Bellagio. But I doubt it will thrive and grow as Mason hopes, because the demographic I mentioned earlier makes up most of the global LHE fish population. While their business ownership allows them to regularly take a few hours and gamble at the local cardroom, they're responsible for too much low-level management to take as many extended vacations as salaried professionals or independently wealthy whales. The limiting factor of the growth of ANY game in this city is the inflow of tourist money, not the willingness of young grinders to learn another game.

I predict an increasingly decentralized future for B&M poker. LHE may thrive in this future, but it won't thrive in the locations it traditionally has.

heading for week out there from back here.....planning 90% of time at Bellagio LHE.... the money on the table is insane as are the number of tables open compared to back here just east of Fox Towers. all the no limit folks believe zero skill at LHE....maybe at 2-4, and sometimes at 20/40..........it just gets expensive....and love to see the NL guys sit in..

Monkee hit it out of the park with that assessment .......nice work

One thing I've noticed the past few years in so cal at least is that some players have moved down in stakes. Some players I used to see at 20 now are at 8/16, and some players who used to be at 8/16 are now at 4/8. Could be a combo of finally losing too often and too much and some are still really struggling with their finances. Economy of a seversl yrs back may not have helped either.

In some joints the higher games have died out so what once was the 2nd or 3rd highest game is now the highest.

Also I see some LHE players made the switch to various NL games. They told me they were just sick of losing and always getting stupid beats at LHE. I ask them how they've been doing and most of them seem to be winning on avg lots more than they were at LHE. These were not great players but reasonable ones.

I wish LHE would make a come back, around me it just become harder and harder to find a game, especially above 3/6. I want to play much higher and others say they do too but there is never enough interest, or a room is often unwilling to run more than one level of LHE stakes as well which just baffles me.

I think TV has just created so many misconceptions about NLHE being the only way to play real poker, that I don't know how we could possibly re-educate pretty much an entire generation of players (including those who are still being introduced to the game today). I'm not sure how we could start a campaign that would convince people that NLHE is meant for tourneys, LHE is meant for cash games, but wish that was possible, or start getting enough interest in mid-high stakes games where the amount of money is meaningful enough to attract some NLHE players. Maybe advertising LHE as a game that has more action as opposed to how boring most NLHE games are? I think most table-game degens that find their way into the poker room would prefer LHE as well if they knew the differences, but most don't and most will never learn.

I hope LHE is able to grow at minimum where it has good games now, but am pretty pessimistic, unfortunately. I fear that as LHE is dying/dead in most locales, there will be less and less tourists going to the few remaining strongholds, like the Bellagio to keep the games going strong there. If I remember their used to be several casinos that ran good LHE even a few years ago (Bellagio, Venetian, Wynn, MGM (but low-stakes), now Bellagio is pretty much the only option. In this article, it compares how low-limit LHE has declined over the last few years in Vegas (I assume mid-stakes has had similar declines, and mid-stakes is pretty much vanishing across the country except a few locales or where states have funny laws): http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/i...pring-2014.php

I think the only chance is if most casinos that spread 2/4 stop doing that and change the minimum to something like 4/8, or only have a single 2/4 then force everyone else to 4/8 or higher (assuming games will still run at that level). Maybe if NLHE players saw enough money on the table they would be more willing to give it a shot? I'm not willing to play that low I can't expect anyone to change games to play 2/4 or 3/6.

Unfortunately, as NLHE declines (which it is as well), I don't see the players leaving and going to LHE or other formats of poker, but just quitting poker completely. I hope something will change that, I just don't see it getting better anytime soon and expect the slow decline to continue.

I think it's a combination of things outside of Las Vegas, mainly the spread of casinos, few of which are willing or able to set up and promote games other than NLHE. Televised poker still keeps the interest high in tournament NLHE which gets most of the attention from incoming (new) players.

Learning LHE involves some effort and time, neither of which is in large supply among the younger crowds trying to cram as much action into a short casino visit as possible. Perhaps Las Vegas will be a better destination for me as interest in LHE contracts elsewhere and maybe it survives or even grows in Vegas. Perhaps some of the younger players who discover LHE in Vegas will push for limit games in their local jurisdictions and draw back the casual players who do not like the danger of getting stacked on every hand and the wealthier players who like the pace of a good mid limit game. I hope so.

Limit absolutely should die. If you guys are scared of gambling to play NL, the poker for men, then don't gamble. Simple as that. Limit Holdem to NL is like softball to baseball

Lol, Takes more skill to be a winner at limit; not even close argument. Limit alive and well at Bellagio and Foxwoods.....Parx, Borgatta...... Off charts at Bellagio; great mix of age demographics and skill set.

By my calculation it takes 12.42 skill units to beat LHE but 12.74 to beat NL so shut up and go make me a sandwich, woman.

Shoe. Interesting to see you post here, as I believe I met you at the Bellagio years ago in a 4/8 game where we talked about the games in Milwaukee vs. Chicago.

I think you're on to something regarding the TV coverage. However, something has occurred to me in the past few days.

My friend Brandon has final tabled four different WSOP Events this year. I have watched all of them on the live stream. What you learn very quickly (and this isn't breaking news, I know) is that while the common thought is "Limit Holdem makes for boring tv" - every game makes for boring tv.

I've watched a PLO tournament, a Razz tournament, a LHE tournament and a mix game tournament that included NL.

Honestly, if you're talking about watching every hand, the most exciting would be triple draw! Otherwise, all NL popularity from televised hands that show an action packed, exciting game are the product of editing - all of us know this because it's one of the reasons that we dislike NL - it can be a verrrrrry boring game, especially at the lower limits with a bunch of anti-social dorks at the table.

I don't think LHE would ever catch on via television, but I just don't understand why people use the "LHE is boring" excuse so often.

I opened the gun and got 3b by 28o. LHE is dead.

Lol @ NL being harder.

Yes, a game where I get to wait until I'm dealt KK and get 100 bb in PF vs ATs sure is brutal.

Mason. I think the problem is that it absurd so difficult for new/young players to move up without the ability to play online. Basically they are going to bein games against very good players with hundreds of thousands, if not Millions of hands of practice against the best players in the world. It would be very difficult for new players to enter the game at this big of a disadvantage and gain that type of experience playing 500 hands a day. That fact coupled with the mascot variance of limit holdem makes it very difficult for young or new players to last, unless they switch back to nl where I can see lots of flops for $2 or $5

Sorry, it was not me that you played against, but I agree with the rest of your post. Hopefully we meet in a Limit game someday!

From Mason - "So I wonder why limit seems to do better in Vegas than in some other places?"

Isn't LHE just doing well only at the Bellagio? I don't know of any other places in LV that have much LHE at all except for a few 3/6 4/8 games.

dead on.

ten years ago I was able to start playing .25/.50 and move up to 1/2 and then 2/4 over the course of a few years and tens (or hundreds) of thousands of hands playing a game that, even at that time, was becoming a niche sport.

that allowed me to be comfortable playing 10/20 at the local casino (back when they used to run it) and have no trouble in doing so.

however, if i were to try to get into LHE now, i would have no option other than the 3/6 game that runs every day at the local casino or the 20/40 which only runs twice a week, with the same group of long-timers.

while that 20/40 game isn't unbeatable, i think it would be very hard to a beginner to make the jump from low limit to "high" limit as the two games are extremely different. without online games playing at 1/10 the stakes of the comparable live games, one cannot get used to that type of game to feel comfortable and take a shot.

it sucks.

Many of the NL players that watch tv and then show up in card rooms play a ton of hands in any position. They will get a lot more action than even the good lag players. To them, a tag player that isn't on a decent run of cards will look super tight.

Actually if there is a game that is less "manly" to play, it's NL. You can play super tight and still do well in that game. You can even buy in short, play incredibly tight and still come out ahead. I've seen plenty of players make big bets to keep the draws from getting there because they can't stomach taking a bad beat that they often would take in limit games. And even the loose, bad NL players rarely bluff and will play much tighter when the bets get big.

I've seen comments from several NL players that switched to something like pot limit Omaha and realized that NL could actually be pretty boring because the games don't have enough action to keep things interesting.

Also, a lot of the tourists I see who come in and try NL will actually buy in for the minimum. As a result, even if they go all-in they won't risk losing much.

Yes, and I think it's dying there too.

Hi Frond:

I think you may have hit on one of the problems. The rake is too high at $3-$6 and $4-$8 limit hold 'em relative to what a regular can win. But in no-limit, even at $1-$2 no-limit, the regular can win enough relative to the rake. So this may be a reason why limit hold 'em is failing before it can get started.

Best wishes,
Mason

I'm confused by the reasoning behind the "moving up" argument.

I never played online PLO. True small stakes PLO is seldom found live. So I never had a chance to build a bankroll playing the game.

When I found soft PLO games, I took shots at them. While taking shots, I studied the game and developed my skills. I continued to play other games at stakes I was properly rolled for. Eventually, I developed into a winning PLO regular.

I just can't see why someone, who found a soft mid/high stakes LHE game they weren't rolled for, couldn't do the same thing. So what if there are experts at your table who've played zillions of hands online? Sure they'll have an edge on you, but if you're a decent player and practicing good game selection that shouldn't hold you back.

i think the point is that there isn't an opportunity for "good game selection" as there are so few amounts of games.

even at the Bellagio during the series, I found that there was only one table of 10/20 LHE running, which would be the natural place for a beginner who had done well at 3/6 or 4/8 to take a shot.

furthermore, to the new player you have to wonder what their perception is of LHE when you consider what they're being told by the rooms. by having only one table or a game once or twice a week of Limit, you can't expect them to think much of it. they're not going to start playing in the first place if their option is to play at one of the 20 tables of NL or to sit on a list waiting to play at the one table of Limit.

Man up guys and learn to play a real game. Limit is for old farts that don't know what to do with the extra $125 left over a month on their social security check. It's as fun as watching paint dry.

There is a reason limit games are dying up and that is simply that it is not real poker. My advice to you is to quit poker or play NLHE or PLO. If you can't take a 100bb loss at $1/$2, you shouldn't be gambling, you're either too broke or too scared to be gambling.