2nd hand at the table so no real reads

four limpers, i complete 2hTh in the sb, bb checks

flop 2TJr

i bet, bb folds, first limper raises, one coldcaller, rest fold, i 3b, both call

turn Q

i bet, first limper raises me again, coldcaller folds

calldown? or am i drawing to 2 outs here?

Well you have 4 outs against QJ. A straight needs to be discounted a bit due to the flop action, but if he has that you also have 4 outs. Only against QT/JT/sets are you drawing slim/dead, and we can't rule out worse hands like KQ or AA, call down a good river IMO.

Is he capable of limping AK from EP? I think that's pretty important.

I basically played this hand two days ago and think the answer is you have to call the turn and fold the river UI against most players. A read would help though.

jesse

his passive preflop play and aggressive flop play
seem a bit inconsistent for him to have AK here

basically on the turn all i can hope to beat
is KQ or AQ that went nutso on the flop

but if hes willing to play so aggressively on the flop with those hands

why wouldnt he raise preflop with those hands?

more often than not

i think im looking at a better two pair here

exactly JT or QJ

so as sharpie pointed out im drawing between 2-4 outs

i folded the hand but it has still been bothering me

My hand was slightly different in that I spiked a 5 on a board of 3JQr with 35s from the sb. In that case, I pretty much always had 4 outs because my opponent couldn't have a set and was going to show me JQ like 99.9% of the time. In your case, I agree that the possibility of stuff like JT and QT sucking up your outs really causes some problems.

By my count there are 10.5 bets in the pot..so yeah, I can see a fold.

With no reads and no info on the stakes this one is a bit hard but I can often see myself calling down here against an unknown. I think the pot is too big to throw away since you have 4 outs against some part of the villains range and you will run into some funky played hands (AA, KK, AQ and KQ) sometimes.

/Mike

good lay down

IMO villain can have in order of likelihood:

1. 98 or QJ
2. 22 or KJ
3. TT, JJ or maybe AK
4. Some other type of wierd semi-bluff (is there a flush draw on the turn?)

By my count you are getting 10-1 when the action comes back to you on the turn. I think you should to call the turn, and I don't think its very close (mainly because there is some chance he has KJ which you are beating, and a good chance he has QJ that you have 4 clean outs against).

I think if you are playing perfectly, in a vacuum, you should then fold the river if you don't improve, because at that point if villain continues to bet its even less likely that he has KJ, which is all you are beating at this point. You'll be getting 12-1, but I think you'd only be good like 4-5% IMO. (But I think i'd probably call because you have 2-pair in a head-up pot vs. an unknown, and I have trouble making these laydowns.).

ok, ritchie, i just read the whole thread, didn't want to bias myself before.

yes, i think your intuition thats making you feel bad about the fold is correct. i really think its a turn call and river fold (if any fold).

I like it with a read. Without one i have to call down against an unknown. Simply for the info & size of pot.

Yea, unfortunately you havn't been at the table long. However, the board texture feels like he has at least a QT, JT type of hand. AK should be in the back of your mond, but there was no raise preflop. You obviously had a gut feeling you were beat, but b/c your new I would lean towards a call down.

I always hate when this happens, i get a free or cheap look in the blinds and endup losing bets that would never have happened if I wasnt in the blinds.