Hi everyone --

Last weekend, i ran into a situation where someone tried to run what I felt was a fairly egregious angle on me.

The situation:

FW 40-80, 3 handed. I was playing with a strong regular and an unknown who was playing something like 50/5 in the game (his post flop skills were similarly poor imo). He was the reason this game existed.

I'm on the button -- in a 4.5 bb pot on the turn, fish checks, regular checks, I bet, fish calls, reg folds.

At this point, I did not see the fish call, so I pushed my cards forward (clearly visible and over a foot from the muck, but across the bet line). Fish immediately goes ballistic and calls floor, who rules my hand is live.

Decision point 1: Fish commands that I must check the river down. Your action?

I agree. River comes and I win. I check behind with essentially the nuts (as I said I would).

Decision point 2: As I sit in astonishment, fish reaches into the pot and takes $80 while yelling that he gets his turn bet back. It seems very likely this he will quit if I don't let him do this. Your action?

This was my first time playing with this player. Does this affect your decision at all? Does my turn error affect things?

Thanks!

You shouldn't have to do anything. The dealer should call the floor. Since he did not, you should call the floor. If the question is, would I let this fish be a total dirtbag because I'm afraid the game might break, I would not.

Btw your second best way to prevent this would be not to agree to check the river with him (zero chance I'm doing this either, especially after he tried to get my hand killed with a technicality).

Best way is obviously just to pay attention to all players' action. We're human though and **** happens.

Bet line has to one of the stupidest things in poker

Yeah, bet the river, collect all the monies. If fish won't play, whatever. As it is now, you're giving up $160. So, even from an EV standpoint that's probably about 2 hours of your time, which I'm guessing is longer than the mean length of time this dude plays.

EV aside, I still would never let someone take a bet back, and really you shouldn't agree to check the river. What if he hits the nuts on the river and now bets into you or something? You have no recourse. The floor isn't going to make him check his hand.

Further, it's poker, you have to go by the rules. When there is a dispute, the floor rules and we move on. There's nothing to be done about it. Floor ruled hand is live, so hand is live, play on.

I try not to cave to terrorist demands it sets a bad precedent

What is your range. What is villain's range.

If you let him pull his turn AND river calls back, you might as well quit because his demands are just going to get more and more ridiculous.

Correct. No negotiating. I'd have never agreed for to check the river. Never allowed him to take the bet back. And let the game break if it broke.

I find it very hard to find a 3 handed game with a 50/5 player in it. I would expect a decent player's hourly win rate to be absurdly high in such a situation and don't think it would take anywhere near 2 hours to win back 2 big bets.

Having said that, screw this guy and his ridiculous demands. He may have been planning to leave anyway. He might decide to stay and try to get even after we bet river. He might even be using this perceived slight as an excuse to quit the game. There was a guy in my game last weekend who appeared to use such a tactic to quit the game after a hit and run.

He's not a regular player so it's only going to cost me the expected win of however long he stays in game today. Usually I find guys like this don't stay long and play short handed because they either run out of money or it is quickly apparent they are getting owned (or they are ahead and want to book a win).

I'm usually in favor of letting a big fish bend the rules a little, but these really cross the line. Especially considering he just tried to get your hand killed. If you ever try to get someones hand killed, you are not a good person, and you don't deserve special treatment.

Also, I don't think 50/5 is even that bad. If I'm in a 3 handed game, there's most likely someone playing much worse. So IMO, this is hardly a once in a lifetime event.

I like the idea that you just let the floor handle it. Then the player can get mad at them and not you.

You're being results oriented.

What??!

Is fish ahead in that game or behind? He may quit if he is ahead but if he is behind he will continue playing no matter what you do.

don't check the river dummy

First, it's a well known rule at that particular cardroom that your hand is retrievable as long as it has not touched the muck as long as there is no action behind you that may or may not have been influenced by your action. That goes for showdown situations, the big blind not realizing that he is in the blind and so on. Sometimes the floor will STILL rule that the hand is live after touching the muck if it is clear which cards were folded. In fact, just this week it was ruled that at a showdown a player's card can fly off of the table and onto the floor and it can still be picked up off of the floor and tabled to win the pot! So, they try pretty hard not to kill a hand on a technicality.

Of course, if this is a novice player who is unfamiliar with playing in a casino, he may not be aware of the rules. Still, once the floor is called and the ruling is issued and the disagreement is settled, this player should be satisfied with that process.

Even so, correct or not, I can still see a scenario where I might agree to check it down on the river in this extremely unusual scenario if this player is still really upset "for the good of the game". Despite what others have said, I'm pretty sure that if both players verbally announce that they check before the river card comes out that action is binding and the player would be unable to bet if he makes his hand, so there is no worry from that perspective.

However, if I win the pot and the player now reaches into the pot, I draw the line there no matter what. If a pot is correctly being pushed in my direction and a player reaches into that pot, that is exactly equivalent to a player reaching into my stack and stealing from me and there is no possible circumstance in which I would allow that to happen. As a matter of fact, not only would I call the floor, but I might possibly call security depending on how severe this player's irrationality appears to be. If he takes money out of the pot and walks away from the table, things might even get physical. He absolutely cannot be allowed to steal from you.

This might even be a good time for YOU to quit the game. Who needs that nonsense?

I am the second reg in the game. magicqmc's account of the hand needs clarification. Perhaps his perception was affected by anger. I forget who the dealer was, but she made 2 very bad mistakes which exacerbated the situation.

Dealer Mistake #1: There was a language barier that made understanding the fish difficult, but I got the sense that when he demanded that magicqcm check it down OTR, he made that demand out of a feeling that he deserved compensation for a wrong (he did not). The dealer stopped and sheepishly relayed the request to magicqmc, forcing magigqcm to be the bad guy (in the fish's eyes). magicqmc concurred. She should have just moved the hand along.

Dealer Mistake #2: After the river was checked down the fish reached out, but did not touch the pot. He made a second demand that he get back his turn bet back. The dealer froze and did not ship the pot. She stopped the action, left the pot in the center, and repeated the request to magicqmc, putting him on the spot. magicqmc ultimately agreed.

In both of the above dealer mistakes, the dealer made magicqmc look like a cutthroat if he did not concur. She should have never done that.

Only after the fish got away with both the turn and river angles, I advised magicqmc to let it go, and move on with the game. At that point he couldn't do anything but run the fish off. magicqmc, I think you got screwed and should have refused both unreasonable demands, however [ADVANCED POKER TIP] once he got away with both angles, your best path forward was to play on because it was +EV to do so. I only advised you to let it go after the hand when you had no recourse.

I don't think your telling of the story affects the way i react to what happened.

If someone is playing 50/5 in a live 3 handed game 20+, I'm asking the casino to lock the doors.

Isn't any 3h live game likely to be a "lock the door" kind of event?

I'm not sure how RIPUA's comments change the hand. I agree that the dealer could have made the situation go better. "No, sir. He bet and was called. His hand is live and play continues."

Just bet. You can be polite, say what you want, etc. You have a hand to bet, so you bet it. The fact that turn action got screwed up doesn't remove your ability to bet later. What does he want?

On the turn, I wouldn't agree to check down the river. On the river I bet.
The dealer shouldn't allow anyone to take back money. The floor should protect money in the pot, as well. I guess I mostly play in spots where scooting/chopping up pots that isn't allowed so once the money is in the middle, you wouldn't have a choice. Even in a place where it was allowed, him reaching in the pot is like reaching into your wallet.
no
No. I'm willing to make it clear "I thought you had folded, that's the only reason I pushed my hand in." If your hand was live on the turn (it was) then you can bet the river and he doesn't get a turn bet back. The idea where you bet and get called and then somehow he is owed turn money is amazing/wrong.

LOL!!!! The guy totally angled you. Not laughing at you just the situation. Laughing at the dealer and angle shooter. Dealer for allowing it to happen and angle shooter for taking such a ridiculous shot.

The way to handle this is to grab you hand back and politely explain to the player i thought both of you folded so i was giving my hand to dealer so i can get the pot. "I didn't see you call'. Once he starts arguing you explain that your hand never hit the muck so it's still a live hand. If he argues past this point you ask the dealer to call the floor to explain to the player. He needs to hear it from someone other than you so he knows you're not angling him if he genuinely is confused. Having the floor their will also make it less likely the fish tries the shot he did as he knows he can only pull off such an angle on the down low where the dealer is lost(not doing her job correctly) and having you be to nice allowing him to take advantage of you.