You don't have to be tactful but at least be knowledgeable. Now to the point.
According to a pokerroom DB in the full ring online game above 25-50 UTG and UTG+1 KJs is showing EV of -0.47 and -0.59 respectively. 88 is showing EV of -0.34 and -0.31.
My DB (2.7mil hands) is showing a bit different results but still not enough to be playable often enough. Live games are a lot softer but there are games where those hands just not profitable. Now i am done arguing with you until you can back up your ******ed posts with some kind of numbers. Good luck.

Yeah those CB games were horrible and of course don't factor into my original statement about games below the 40 level.

Question: How do you make sure a posted question gets 5x the replies of a regular thread.

Answer: Make it a preflop question

mitch doesn't know much about numbers--he just reasoned and lucked into a v winning strategy. plus, you not providing a link or info on how you go about getting your pokerroom numbers is not helpful for refuting ur argument. However, i can still come up with something:

Mitch is ~ 4bb/100 winner
avg hi-stakes pokerroom player is ~ -1 bb/100 player (after rake)

ppl play ~ 20% of hands -> Mitch wins on avg .25 bb/played hand more than avg person. not sure how to factor in that your comparison was totally unfair, but i'd guess it makes a big difference.

btw, you should show a little more respect for your peers imo.

http://www.pokerroom.com/poker/poker...lue-stats.html
Please read the entire thread. I posted my opinion based on games that i play. Mitch called it ******ed based on the games that he plays...hmm...respect???

What we've really got here, imo, are ppl comparing apples and oranges, so to speak. I've long thought that there ought to be a sticky for this forum wherein various game conditions are described and when ppl post they can say 'I play in game type.......(check the box)'. Plus there are a few in this thread talking about online which mixes it up even more.

I'm w/ the 'situational' crowd. The CAZ 20 has some TAGS, many more passives and not all that many maniacs anymore. I don't like the A-Q against an EP raising TAG and when a 'passive' suddenly wakes up from his slumber and raises what do we think he has? That leaves the nut-job so against them I 3-bet.

btw, how is this one for a heresy? In the 8-16 yesterday I folded QQ pf to a single raise from the UTG player when it was folded around to me in the CO. And, yes, I got to see his AA yet again when the BB called him down.

My games resemble ops and as I have said before this a live game forum. You choose not to believe that for some reason but the fact is that most internet players on this site play 6max because the edge is much larger so your opinion based on your games is out of context.

i don't find it outrageous to suggest limping or folding A9s or KJs or 77 UTG in some particular 10 handed games - but that's kind of besides the point. i think topic was brought up because someone said that they fold AQo against UTG raisers who usually have AQ+, TT+ (which are not really that rare, i don't know what games you guys are playing). and yeah- i agree with that. if the UTG raiser is a nit, yeah ill fold AQo a lot. probably not on the button, but probably in the HJ.

if you are guaranteed to be HU with position, 3betting AQo can never be that bad- but the further you are off that button, the more likely you're going run into trouble behind you. it's not that often that someone behind you has QQ+ or AK, but when it happens it costs you enough.

for instance, i fold AQ UTG+1 in FR to an UTG raise a ton. rarely though on the button. i'm sure many of you roll your eyes and say "obviously. we're talking about late position" - but i think it's worth stressing that exact position is a huge factor in exactly how valuable the hand is.

Yeah, you are right, calling a play you make "******ed" was rude. Though your initial post came off as know-it-all as well and contradicts what a lot of us have assumed was correct.

Thanks for the link, ill have to look into it.

Come on kids, play nice. Warning to all in the forum -- let's not call each other ******s.

You don't call ******ed people "******s". That would be in bad taste. You call your friends "******s" when they're acting ******ed.

This is why I do it. Often when I re-raise with AQo the "huge nit" who originally raised with AK folds to my rag flop bet because I have to have AA, KK, QQ, JJ? or AK. Or else, I hit my hand and beat JJ or KK and the other guy goes on session tilt.

And for those who know me well, it gives me the opportunity to 3-bet with AK hit the flop and force them to go runner runner to beat me. Which happened twice the other day. Does this make me ******ed?

Also, on the several occasions when I did fold - I went on tilt when AQ would have won a $300 pot (10/20 LHE @ FW)

It is not ******ed. It is a normal lag strategy to isolate with postion in the hopes of out playing the opponent post flop. This can be done effectively with hands that are underdogs to the opponents range when you have the extra dead blind money in the pot as an overlay. But this strategy becomes increasingly risky the greater the number of people left to act afterwards. If you get four bet you will mostly likely be an underdog to both the player to your right and left. This is why the general strategy with AQo vs an early raiser is to 3 bet if it is folded to you in late position but to fold if you are a few seats off of the button... the risk/reward doesn't generally balance properly unless you are at a weak tight table and the players are not aware of your lag tactics.

lol

No one has ever accused me of being tasteful.

years ago there was this thing called the AQ test. and then years later that test became outdated.

for the most part if you pick a random dude i've never seen before 3-betting him with AQo wouldn't be a terrible mistake if at all and totally standard. there are some people where it is a standard fold for me. so of course it is all situational.

if bakku or private joker or whoever i know and respect and are playing tightly raises utg and i am utg+1 i am folding AQo. if they are opening utg+2 and i am utg+3 i am 3-betting. or something around there.

if there is a gap between us, where they are opening utg, i would have to be in hijack or better to really consider 3-betting. ignoring the fact that there are players to act behind you is a big mistake and really changes the dynamics of said hands.

also re: opening standards utg. also situational. i have limped hands as strong as 99 and KJs utg and i have opened with hands as weak as 75s and K9o.

Hmm, I didn't know I had talked with Entity about it, but I guess I probably have. The short version is that I coldcall first in with AA/KK a lot against EP openers with a lot of players left to act behind me at certain tables, depending on the average number of opponents I think calling will get me versus 3betting. It has resulted in a LOT of me being in weird spots and taking weird lines postflop, but I have grown to really love the play.

I do it with those hands when I think it's right, but never to "mix it up". I coldcall and open-limp enough in full games that even solid players end up seeming to think I have lots of leaks. I had a decent list of hands I open-limped UTG back in the Party 30 full - something all the other TAGs virtually never did - and did plenty of cold-calling. In general, the more bad players are at the table, the more likely I am to be coldcalling premium hands first in anyway.

good stuff, thx

When did you start slummin' in the 8/16?

Oaks 30-60 not long after midnight this morning. Rich T, UTG+1 in seat 3 opens for a raise. Action is folded to me in seat 8, I squeeze my cards, and see AQo. I think of Rich as a smart TAG with tendencies towards nittiness. I don't like my hand that much against his range, and I've gotten myself into a lot of expensive trouble in the past when I've three-bet EP raisers with AQ, so I folded. SB in seat 10 called. Naturally enough, a Q flopped, and Rich drove the betting the whole way, getting called on the river. He showed suited QJ for the win.

im pretty sure this thread as a whole has me tilted in some way, shape, or form.

BEAT: I folded AQ preflop UTG last summer while sitting on a huge win in 100/200 and admitted it (mistakenly) to David Baker and DeathDonkey (I think?) and was promptly and deservedly tarred and feathered in town square by the table...

Be sure to think about some more situations with AQ tonight before you go to sleep so you can post them fresh tomorrow.