Typical 20-40 game at commerce, lots of 5+ ways action.

Reads:

UTG: LAG that has been running good the past hour. Been playing 50% of his hands.

UTG+1: Very bad LAG. Playing 75% of his hand and usually open raises wide range with no regard to position. Losing bad.

MP: decent TAG.

Hijack: Tight tight TAG who has played just a few hands the past 2 hours but all have been bad beats or big pocket pairs not holding up. She seems to be loosening up the past 2 orbits or so.

SB: Hero. TAG(fish?) image.

BB: New player, no read.

Play:
UTG limp, UTG+1 limp(surprise), MP limp, hijack raises.
Hero has 4c6c on the SB.

My thinking: I don't expect BB,UTG,MP to 3bet but there is a fair chance that UTG+1 bad LAG will 3! to "build a pot", he likes to do that when he is losing bad.

Do we play this hand given this lineup? Does possibility of bad LAG building a pot factor into our decision(which means seeing the flop for 2.5 or 3.5 SBs instead of 1.5 SB now)? If so, should that possibility encourage or discourage us to get involve?

Sorry guys this is strictly a pre flop question and I like to know how good players handle this. Feel free to move this to Small stakes if the question is trivia.

I'm happy to play 46s for a discount in a 6way pot. If it gets 3bet, that's not even particularly bad for us. If the tight tight TAG is actually really super tight then nbd, we know where she's at and can play accordingly.

Yup. I don't hate a call w/ this hand in this spot at all.

I do. I think it would be awful to call

2 maniacs to act behind you. it's a fold, and not even close imo.

Really? Plugging in some ranges I have us hovering around 16% depending on how tight the tight tight TAG that may be loosening up is. If everybody just calls we're getting like 7:1 on our money here. Even if sometimes it gets 3bet we're getting better than 6:1... I just don't see how it can be that bad, especially with poor players in there.

Plug in 72o it's not that much worse. Hot cold equity is meaningless here

This is slightly misleading. Keep in mind: getting 6-1 when we have to put in 2 SBs very different from getting 6-1 having to put in 1 SB. We are getting better implied odds in the second scenario.


I don't think calling is awful. With two really bad players, I call, but I'm never very happy putting in more than 1 SB when a 'tight tight TAG' is raising PF.

You are wrong.

I call. And I think it's not really debatable. Plug it into equilator.

Thank you all for the replies.

I tanked for 30 secs(which is eternity for lhe preflop) and folded which leads BB to say sarcastically 'professional here folded AJ'.

It looks like people that say fold absolutely hated it and people that say call think it is straightforward. I usually just fold in this spot thinking I'll just play discipline but if 'Mr discipline crusher' Lawdude who understands the dynamics of the commerce 20 game says it's not even debatable I guess I'll reconsider my action next time this happens. Thank you all!

I would call in a 2/3 blind, I think it's a fold in a 1/2 blind structure.

The people who limped likely have cards that going to connect with the boards we connect with.

I would call in a 2/3 blind structure, not 1/2 blinds. It's close, i'd call with 7/6 for sure. I would worry when lags start limping in that their hands are going to be in our neighborhood a lot. IE bigger clubs, bigger 6's, similar straight cards...

Where do you draw the line would you get in there with 4/5s or 5/6s ?

"I like finding reasons to play hands against terrible opponents"


Broad overstatement. Fish1 plays 50%, Fish2 plays 75%. Their ranges are pretty random -- you're being too paranoid thinking this hand is dominated often.

We're putting 1.5 in though, not 2. I realize we still get better implied odds when its just 1 compared to 2. But i don't think anybody would consider folding this from the BB...

72o has like zero implied odds... 46s certainly has a reasonable amount.

Don't worry, you can outplay them all postflop with your 6 high!

I play a lot of hands in this spot and 46s is one of them.

we can flop quads (2), boat (18), trips (264), flush (165), straight minus flush (125), and two pairs w/ both cards (396). That's 970/19600 (4.95%) strong flops.

we can also flop a flush draw minus straight (2118) and open-ender minus flush && flush draw (1020?). That's another 3138/19600 (16.01%) strong draws. (not sure if combos are correctly discounted...)

Anyways, let's take away bad boards like 3s5sas, 5d7dkd, etc. We'll still have around 20% of flops to continue with. I agree our h/c equity suffers the most when we flop one pair or a gutshot or some kind of backdoor straight+flush draw since we won't get to realize it being OOP or flopping a pear of 6s && not knowing if it's good or not.

If we lose 1.5 BB 80%, can we make 6 BB the other 20% of the time after taking in consideration of RIO? Flush draws and straight draws have around 30% equity where the pot is 5-6 BB (assuming no more raises) and they make up 3/4th of our continuing hands.

hmm now that I've typed this out, it seems like folding 80% of the flops is burning money on fire since we have to make 6 BB the other 20% where the pot size is only 5-6 BB. I might have learned something or my logic above has huge loops.

^^ah i see what i did wrong. we lose 0.75 BB 80% of the time, so we only need to make 3 BB the other 20% of the time!

I think it's still a call then.

In your example, you don't have 100% equity on the 20% of flops you're continuing in.

Let's say you flop an OESD 20% of the time. Unless you can bluff out 5 opponents, you will win only 30% of those. So 80% you pay -0.75 to whiff, 14% you pay -2.25 to chase and end up DIYH, and 6% you have to win like +16 BB to break even (11 postflop).

But I think you're underestimating the number of flops you can continue. Any pair (32%) gives you a putative 5-outer (discount for possibly drawing dead), flush draw (11%) gives you a putative 9-outer (discount for dominated draws), and OESD (7%) gives you a putative 8-outer (discount for dominated draws). Add a few gutshots and you "hit" about 60% of flops with an aggregate equity if like 15%. So that'd be about 9-10 BB you need if you whiff 40%, chase and whiff 45%, and hit 15%.

9-10 BB is not unreasonable in a 6-way pot (remember you get 5 preflop), but it's a stretch.

Compare a suited connector. You get 150% more OESDs, 166% more gutshots, and basically end up with 8-9 BB as your target (3-4 postflop) and it looks a lot better.

Also compare bigger cards. Flush drae domination goes down (a 6-high flush draw is 5th percentile among flush draws, an 8-high flush draw is 18th percentile, a T-high flush draw is 38th), straight draw domination goes down (65 is crushed by JT on a 98x flop, T9 cannot be dominated this way), we have better chances of making 2nd pair or even top pair, reducing counterfeiting outs for the equity leader.

64s is just too small and not connected enough.

I just plugged a leak. I usually call here. I usually call slightly better suited stuff here even if it's just one raise and a call or one limper and a raise.

What should the bottom of our calling range be here?

I think 86s is an easy call, 75s is whatever, and 64s is a fold. I made this decision by thinking about 53s and deciding that calling would be pretty bad poker, so 64s can't be that much better.

I'm thinking the bottom of my calling range would look like this: A2s, ATo, K2s, KTo, Q8s, QTo, J7s, JTo, T7s, T9o, 97s, 86s, 75s, 65s, 54s.