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06-22-2015 , 01:08 AM
#1
stuff
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grinder
Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 621
Solid, winning LAG opens the button, small blind folds, we call with KT offsuit.

J84 rainbow

We check/call

What are your plans for the following turns if villain is likely to bet if checked too?

1. A
2. 2
3. 7
4. T
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06-22-2015 , 02:51 AM
#2
OnTheRail15's Avatar
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Pooh-Bah
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Chk all of them.

Raise the T. Fold the 7. Call the others
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06-22-2015 , 04:37 AM
#3
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what do you estimate villain's range as and how are you doing vs it on those different cards? what price would you be getting immediately and how does that jive with your equity? what price would you be getting on a calldown?
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06-22-2015 , 04:39 AM
#4
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Check no matter what comes. Check/call any river if turn is a 10/K.
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06-22-2015 , 07:47 AM
#5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
Chk all of them.

Raise the T. Fold the 7. Call the others
You fold the seven when we pick up the gutshot?
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06-22-2015 , 11:19 AM
#6
jdr0317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey
You fold the seven when we pick up the gutshot?
That was my thought too. Glad I'm not alone.

FWIW it does kind of kill our UISD value.
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06-22-2015 , 12:03 PM
#7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathDonkey
You fold the seven when we pick up the gutshot?
Well what would you do? All the options kinda suck.
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06-22-2015 , 12:26 PM
#8
double edged sword
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If we check call the turn 2, are check calling any blank river? I feel like this is rather spewy...? Although folding K high on the turn in a blind steal battle could be a bit exploitable... thoughts? Thanks everyone.
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06-22-2015 , 12:35 PM
#9
jdr0317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
Well what would you do? All the options kinda suck.
Would check-raise be a decent option? What hands do you think would make a better x/r bluff on this turn?
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06-22-2015 , 12:42 PM
#10
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Against an unknown, I c/f the A, and c/c the others. I think the problem with c/r'ng the 7 is that it figures to improve much of a bttn's opening range (that doesn't already have you crushed), which takes away a lot of fold equity. So if you c/r the 7 and get called, you probably have to c/c most rivers.

I would also c/r a T against a decent number of players in my games, but there are also enough players in mid limit who's call down range will too often beat a T making it -EV. -IMO
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06-22-2015 , 02:43 PM
#11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Would check-raise be a decent option? What hands do you think would make a better x/r bluff on this turn?
I don't love it given our hand is king high and I don't expect lags to b/ face high in this spot very often.
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06-22-2015 , 03:00 PM
#12
lawdude
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Yeah, when the 7 comes, the phrase "king high and a **** in our hand" comes to mind....

Not sure if I x/f or x/c though.
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06-22-2015 , 03:21 PM
#13
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Our read is that villain is double barreling his entire range?

Let's show some more aggression here, folks. xr T for value. xr A to punish the value hands he should be checking back. call-decide on 2 or 7, though I don't hate xr those either. People who blindly double barrel tend to react very poorly when played back against. I don't mind turning KT into a bluff even though it has value has a call down with outs kind of hand.
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06-22-2015 , 03:32 PM
#14
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I'm 3 betting pre and starting to fire away.

Aren't we doing pretty good against a loose aggressive guy's button range?
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06-22-2015 , 06:23 PM
#15
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Agreed^^^

I am leaning towards the 3 bet pre as well. This thread is why just calling seems < than 3 betting it.
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06-22-2015 , 08:55 PM
#16
jdr0317
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Can someone post a good 3 betting strategy against a good LAG BTN open that won't result in him obliterating us when he actually makes a hand?
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06-22-2015 , 10:18 PM
#17
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A lag is always going to obliterate you when he makes a hand. I always call but that's not a good argument for not 3betting.
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06-22-2015 , 10:48 PM
#18
Jon_locke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace upmy Slv
Agreed^^^

I am leaning towards the 3 bet pre as well. This thread is why just calling seems < than 3 betting it.
How are these spots any easier when we 3 bet pre?

My favorite saying on here "taking control of the hand" isn't always what it's cracked up to be.
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06-22-2015 , 11:31 PM
#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
Our read is that villain is double barreling his entire range?

Let's show some more aggression here, folks. xr T for value. xr A to punish the value hands he should be checking back.
which value hands will he be b/folding?
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06-23-2015 , 02:46 AM
#20
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I am envisioning what his range should be vs what it is, then thinking about how to exploit it. He should be checking back weaker SD hands that don't want to be x'red, and weak hands that would prefer a free card. These would include small PPs, 4x, 8x, gutshots. Maybe he will call our turn bet with these hands, but will still hate us if we barrel river and he doesn't improve.

If you think he's going to call down too light, then I guess we can adjust our strategy and x/r 8x for value. (Or develop an aggressive river donking strategy, so he can't check behind all these weak hands he is double barreling)
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06-23-2015 , 09:51 AM
#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
If you think he's going to call down too light, then I guess we can adjust our strategy and x/r 8x for value. (Or develop an aggressive river donking strategy, so he can't check behind all these weak hands he is double barreling)
i think this makes more sense than c/raising and making him uncomfortable for the 30 seconds when he's calling down something thin but ultimately just wins an extra bet from us. of course, if he's going to b/f ace high or laydown pairs that's another story....
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06-23-2015 , 10:45 AM
#22
Bob148
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I have a 3 betting range preflop. KTo is not in it.

----

I'd check raise the Ace turn and check call the others. My reasoning when deciding whether or not to check raise bluff depends on my perceived value range, which has lots of Aces up combos when the Ace falls. I think the 7 is the trickiest card to play. I'd check call the turn and check fold the river unimproved. It's tempting to bluff, but I'd check raise T9 on the flop. I'm basically representing 87 as the top of my check raise range, which I think is too weak of a perceived range to add 16 combos of KTo as a check raise bluff.
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06-23-2015 , 11:00 PM
#23
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You guys are really xr the A turn? Seems pretty awful to me.
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06-23-2015 , 11:28 PM
#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
You guys are really xr the A turn? Seems pretty awful to me.
+1
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06-23-2015 , 11:30 PM
#25
Jon_locke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheRail15
You guys are really xr the A turn? Seems pretty awful to me.
you have to take control of the hand. If we don't 3 bet pre flop, or c/r flop or turn how else do we do it
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