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Originally Posted by swifttarrow
So I've taken shots at the 15/30 and 20/40 with pretty dismal results. Even though it's a very small sample (<20hrs), I don't feel any major tangible edge when playing these games.
20 hrs over two games is nothing. Thats like one session of each for me. Not feeling like you have a tangible edge is however important. You will see better players when you move up. Also, there will be fewer awful players. Aggression levels should go up. The biggest difference I found was that post flop play is much superior in 20/40.
When I moved up from 10/20 to 20/40 at FW I did feel like I had a tangible edge over the 20/40 players. It was obvious in a short period of time that the bad players were too loose. And more aggressive. But still too loose. Also, they open limped a lot.
When I moved up to play 40/80 I immediately sensed no tangible edge. In fact there was often a tangible disadvantage. Basically at FW the best 2 or 3 players at each 20/40 table gets up to play the 40/80 when it starts. Add to that one or two rich men who are bored at 20/40 and thats the game. Figure out who populates the 20/40 where you play. Do they have a 40/80 game as well? Or are the best players playing 20/40? How many games of 20/40 run at one time? (2 or more means there is a reasonable player pool). Are you talking about daytime? You will start to see a pool of professionals playing daytime 20/40.
edit: At Bay 101 when a 20/40 game starts up, it almost always has 3-5 40/80 players in it. I have started out down $1,000 before I knew what hit me. Then players start getting called to the 40 game and I start feeling really stupid...
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1. Hand-reading - people in 15/30 and 20/40 tarp a lot more than in 6/12 and 8/16. I find myself paying off excessively with both the strong and weak part of my range, especially against the c/c-lead line. I also feel so uncomfortable making exploitative bet-folds in bigger limit games, but wouldn't think twice to do in a smaller game. (and also, lower limit players are much more predictable in predicting their playing patterns, whereas mid-stakes players seem to vary it much more widely)
I found myself with the same problem in the 40/80 game. My guess is that you are talking yourself into calling when you shouldn't. I thought every player was so tricky this could be that hand. In the 20/40 games I play, you can safely fold for the most part to big street raises. Find out who is tricky or capable or raises with draws alot. Many don't or don't do it enough to matter.
Also there is more c/r'ing in the higher limit games. A lot of it is semi-bluffs. A lot of it is strong hands. Fewer pushovers/calling stations. There is a lot less slow playing and trapping though because players are much better post flop.
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2. Isolating - EP limp, folds to me in CO/BTN, I would isolate super-wide in a 6/12 and 8/16 game, as bad as J8o/76s, etc.
This is horrible in any game. 76s is a great multi-way hand why try to isolate? Also J8o is fairly bad unless you are taking a flier on the BTN for 1 bet. As a steal raise first in - then OK. Or if you are 3-betting to isolate and you have post flop skills, then OK as a surprise now and then. But I prefer stronger hands to isolate. And against openers who are weak players. When players open limp, why is that? Are they tight raisers who will have strong hands they limp with? Are they limping a ton of hands? Do they ever give up post flop with a pair? Etc. Know your players before you do this kind of battle.
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3. Short-handed pots - gonna post some examples where I realized that, I really don't know how to play these spots well.
Don't play short handed (<7) if you don't have the skills. Either develop skills on-line, reading books, or in lower limit games. Seek out the games to learn. You can make or lose a ton of money in very short periods of time. But if you are bad at it, good players will destroy you. And the bad players will tend to not play because they have already been destroyed.
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4. Reads - developing reads becomes increasingly difficult when players play fewer hands and don't show them at showdown (e.g. they muck the losing hand). Assessment of ranges, how they think, etc. becomes futile.
This is just silly. Most of the players at 20/40 will have tendencies you can count on. Figure out what they have when they muck. What hands could they play that way? Or maybe more helpful, what hands would have won that they don't have? When they muck with disgust on the river, you know they just got outdrawn and were ahead. Often they will give away their hands by the snide comments they make. I learn the most when I am getting chewed out for being stupid. Saying "I was ahead the whole way" often incites a litany of curses - but an equally amazing array of admissions.
Also, if a player shows his hand to a neighbor, ask to see it.
Last edited by Mr Rick; 03-10-2011 at 03:55 PM.